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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Crash

OK, a few facts from the horses mouth:



As most of you know, I have just completed a Zodiac CH 601XL (Lil 

Bruiser).  Both me and the insurance company wanted me to get at least 

an hour in make and model before I solo my airplane. I discovered a new 

service at McKinney Airport (TKI), for training and rental in a 601XLi. 

  This was a familiarization flight in a nearly new AMD built 601XLi.  

The airplane originally had the â€œold styleâ€ canopy latches.  The owner 

was not satisfied with that mechanism and had the factory retrofit the 

new style latches. The owner, Dennis Levy, who is also CFII. was in the 

right seat, me in the left.  We had gone through all the standard 

maneuvers and were straight and level.  I noticed that the right hand 

canopy latch had come loose and the rail was up about 2 inches. I 

pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield, but 

Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air!  In doing so, 

the latch on my side came loose and the canopy immediately shot up to 

about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg.  I immediately 

pulled the power completely off. We both grabbed what we could on the 

canopy but could only pull it down to about 30 deg.  We both pulled 

back on the sticks, with all our might, but never got the nose up to 

level.  I steered toward an open, plowed field. We hit the ground at 



about 10 deg nose down and stopped immediately.  No fire. The canopy 

did not depart the airframe. Dennis was air lifted to Baylor Hospital 

in Dallas.  I was taken to the trauma suite at the Presbyterian 

Hospital in Greenville.  X-rays and CAT scans showed nothing out of 

place or broken.  I have a badly sprained right foot and ankle, a 

bruised rib cage and lots of cuts and bruises on my arms.  I also have 

a slight vision problem.  In pain, but still OK.



It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but 

with a â€œnew and improvedâ€ canopy  latching system.



Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a fail-safe 

strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system,  to 

keep this from ever happening again.



Alive and still with you - Jay 

Bannister________________________________________________________________

________

Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Crash

Jay-

    Good job.

                                                    Bill

---

jonaburns

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 32

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Crash

Jay,



I am happy that you guys are alive, and hope that Dennis recovers soon.

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Crash

This confirms other reports (from myself and others) about open bubble canopies in XLs and Evektor SportStars. In at least two cases with all your strength you can't close a open canopy in the air. I've attached the old report about a deliberate test in England again.



This is what I have written in the past:



Back in December Clive Richards sent out the attached report from the UK PFA magazine of an anonymous pilot testing his (pre-XL?) 601 with an open canopy. He attached a safety cord and intentionally unlatched his canopy. Quoting:



â€œI commenced the test at 3500 ft and 80 knots cruise. I secured the safety cord to the cleat at my elbow with about 1 ft of slack and released the catch. The canopy rapidly popped up about 1 ft at the trailing edge as expected. I then slowly paid out the cord from the cleat and allowed the canopy to rise to a steady state. The canopy adopted a position where the base of the canopy settled to an angle of about 35 degrees to the airflow. Full lateral and pitch control could be maintained but forward speed dropped to about 60 knots and despite increase to full throttle descent was about 300 ft/min. An unexpected problem now presented itself. I was descending quickly and all the strength I could muster with my right arm was only just sufficient to pull the cord down and cleat it progressively. Possibly the slot effect at the front of the canopy open at the front increased the lift (and additionally the gas struts require a cord load of 15 lbs static). I finally, exhausted, got it down to about 6 inches and returned toâ€¦â€



Craig again. I had a similar experience in an Evektor SportStar. This LSA resembles the 601XL: low wing, front-hinged bubble canopy. One difference is that the canopy is split behind the seats. There is a cross-bar behind the seats:



www.evektoramerica.com/SportStarPlus.htm



I was flying left-seat with my instructor. The canopy popped while we were in the pattern. I would estimate that the gap was well over a foot. While the instructor flew I tried to close the canopy. I wrapped my arm around the cross-bar and used all my weight and strength and could not close the canopy. At best I think I got the gap down to 6-8 inches. Evektor redesigned the latch the next year.



I believe the upward force was generated by lift and not wind under the canopy as it did not decrease as I closed the gap.



-- Craig



--

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craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Crash

Here is how Larry McFarland attached a canopy safety strap on his 601:



http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg



http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg



I couldn't find a good picture of the lower attachment of the cable. I believe there is an adjustable buckle on the strap to cinch it up before flight. Look in the archives for an old post from Larry describing the setup.



-- Craig



--

sperry50(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Crash

HOLY MOLY BATMAN!!!! If you were in Fort Myers every drink would be on me.

You deserve it. This doesn't deter me from finishing and flying but it does

give me an extra chapter in the "odd things that might happen" chapter.

Congratulations on keeping a level head and "flying the plane". Hope your

healing is quick!



Skip Perry

N601MP



DO NOT ARCHIVE



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Crash

Craig,

A canopy strap would be a good idea, but the one I constructed was to 

preclude damage from wind getting under it

and taking it past top dead center.  I've had it act like a full sail 

pulling me across the apron in taxi after shutting off the engine.

Would suggest a bit stronger hardware than the nylon buckles used. 

Knowing you're really latched is the best thing. A white stripe across 

the visual latch slot and white on the arm to improve

seeing a good latch condition is my active solution. I've been unlatched 

three times, once the right, twice the left side only.

None since adding paint for a good visual cue.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



Craig Payne wrote:

[quote] 



 Here is how Larry McFarland attached a canopy safety strap on his 601:



 http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewupperbracket.jpg



 http://www.macsmachine.com/images/canopy/full/viewcanopyopen.jpg



 I couldn't find a good picture of the lower attachment of the cable. I believe there is an adjustable buckle on the strap to cinch it up before flight. Look in the archives for an old post from Larry describing the setup.



 -- Craig



 --

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Crash

Jay,

  

 First let me say I'm glad both of you are ok and I am not questioning  you in any way I am just trying to understand what happened.

  

  

 What I am trying to understand is what the canopy being open had to do with  the crash. I have pictures of a 601xl flying with the canopy open and it can and  will fly in that situation. Did you just decide to land or forget to re apply  power? As soon as I get to the airport I will take some pics of a latch Ben made  for his 601xl and before flight he can insure the canopy is locked. I hope that  Zenith didn't create a brand new problem for the brand new airplane. I was going  to modify the canopy and latch system for the one I am building but might  reconsider that now in light of the new information.

 My other question is if the new canopy can withstand the wind forces on the  rear solid mounted piece or will it depart the aircraft if the canopy pops  open. Has this been tested open? 

  

 I will post the pics of a flying 601 with canopy open as soon as I find  them.

  

  

  

  

 Jeff



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Re: Crash

WOW, glad you guys are OK. 



Kevin

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: Crash

Jeff,



The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash.  I have heard that the 

601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the 

pictures you want; but this 601 was NOT controllable, at least in 

pitch.  I was able to make a gentile turn toward the "landing" site, 

but both me and the other pilot could NOT get the nose up to a landing 

configuration. When the canopy went up, it was almost out of reach and 

we absolutely could not pull it down to more than about 30 deg.  We did 

noit "decide" to land.  We could not keep it from going down.  In our 

situation, we may have "forgotten" to do several things, but with two 

hands pulling mightily on the canopy and the other two pulling mightily 

on the stick, we had no options as to what else to do. The wind was 

unbelievable.  The headset and my cap blew off my head.  We were 

fighting for our very lives.  As they say, you just had to be there".



Jay

--

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Crash

Jay, don't worry about the clowns who think they know better than you what 

could/should have been done. It's pointless.



Congratulations on getting to the ground and walking away!! Major 

accomplishment, well done!

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: Crash

Did you leave the power off for the entire duration of the incident or  

did you try to reapply power at some point? It seems that some prop  

wash flowing over the tail might have provided more pitch control, if  

you had the time to try it. I'm not trying to criticize or second  

guess, but if i ever find myself in a similar situation, it would be  

good to at least know what didn't work for someone else.



I know how quick you can run out of options in such a situation, I  

just recently had a close call myself involving a forced landing after  

a power failure. I was lucky to be very near an airport at the time  

and put it down on the runway.



On Aug 16, 2008, at 9:41 AM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Jeff,



 The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash.  I have heard that  

 the 601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up. Post all the  

 pictures you want; but this 601


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Crash

I'm not about to second-guess your decisions and actions. You were there,

and I wasn't. I'm just looking for information before I go out to the

airport and start looking at N55ZC to see what can be added.



On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 06:28:42PM -0400, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I noticed that the right hand canopy latch had come loose and the rail was

 up about 2 inches.


	


At this point, the left latch wasn't loose, I assume. The new latch can be

visually verified to be latched quite easily. Did you or Dennis look before

takeoff?



I'm at a loss to explain how one side could be unlatched. I've tried in my

airplane to latch just one side and not engage the hook on the bolt on the

other, and just wasn't able to without it being obvious there was a problem.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I pointed it out to Dennis. We were in sight of a private airfield, but

 Dennis decided he was going to re-latch it - in the air!


	


This is probably why the AMD POH says to fly the airplane and make a normal

landing, then fix it on the ground.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In doing so, the latch on my side came loose and the canopy immediately

 shot up to about 50 deg., and the nose went down about 60 deg.  I

 immediately pulled the power completely off.


	


I do wonder what would have happened with power - but I'm not about to

suggest anyone run the experiment!



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is important to note that this had nothing to do with wings, but 

 with a ???new and improved??? canopy  latching system.


	


Indeed. The naysayers can't say this is somehow related to the Zodiac's

structural design.



Another thought I just had: If this is a case of one side coming unlatched

in flight somehow (though, again, I'm at a loss to explain how it might

happen short of a component failure), maybe it'd be possible to add some

sort of a keeper to the open end of the latch hook that would have to be

manually moved out of the way before the latch could be undone? This would

be a bit difficult to undo while solo, but there's probably a way around

that, too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Consequently, I am STRONGLY recommending that any 601 have a fail-safe 

 strap to the rear canopy bow, regardless of the latching system,  to 

 keep this from ever happening again.


	


Hm. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be possible to create some sort of latch

between the rear canopy bow and the tube on the front of the

turtledeck...have to look at that. I do know the turtledeck extends forward

a fair amount (I've thought about putting my 496's XM antenna up there), but

just how far forward I don't recall at the moment.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Alive and still with you


	


And we're all thankful for that! In the end, you and Dennis were able to

walk away (well, almost), and that's what really counts. The airplane can be

replaced. You can't.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Crash

Bryan,



When the nose pitched down 60 deg was when I pulled the power off. 

After that, we had all four hands fully engaged, so no way to change 

anything.



I have had three previous engine-outs, which I handled without bending 

anything.  Those didn't scare me like this one, because I had full 

control of a glider.  Those caused immediate concern, but this one 

scared the living sh...t out of me!



Jay



--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Crash

See inserted comments (***):



--

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Crash

Please.  I would like to see no more "woulda', coulda', shoulda'" about 

this subject on this public forum. If you have questions, please 

contact me directly.  If I feel there is subject matter that concerns 

the list, I will most certainly share it with you.



Thanks - Jay 

Bannister________________________________________________________________

________

Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Crash

Jay 

  

 I wonder if the difference is 2 people inside the aircraft. He was flying  alone.

  

 Jeff

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jeff,



The canopy had EVERYTHING to do with the crash.  I    have heard that the 

601 is docile and controllable with the canopy up.    Post all the 

pictures you want; but this 601 was NOT controllable, at    least in 

pitch.  I was able to make a gentile turn toward the    "landing" site, 

but both me and the other pilot could NOT get the nose up    to a landing 

configuration. When the canopy went up, it was almost out of    reach and 

we absolutely could not pull it down to more than about 30    deg.  We did 

noit "decide" to land.  We could not keep it from    going down.  In our 

situation, we may have "forgotten" to do several    things, but with two 

hands pulling mightily on the canopy and the other    two pulling mightily 

on the stick, we had no options as to what else to    do. The wind was 

unbelievable.  The headset and my cap blew off my    head.  We were 

fighting for our very lives.  As they say, you    just had to be there".



Jay

	


 

  



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Crash

No one is thinking they know better than anyone and the pic's weren't to  say what he should or shouldn't have done but I haven't seen anything negative  until your post. And since I build these things and was considering the new  latch system I too am looking for ways to help and understand.   

  

 Jay, don't worry about the clowns who think they know better than you  what 

could/should have been done. It's pointless.

 

  



Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

backstagelive(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Crash

Jay,



Is it possible your shoulder may have hit the new canopy release lever the 

factory put between the pilot and passenger? Did you have any up elevator 

travel left before you landed? Do you think the new canopy release lever 

should be moved to a different location? Do you think it would be possible 

at a higher speed to loose the canopy and inadvertantly put the airplane in 

a condition that would overstress the wings?



Congratulations on demonstrating great skill as a pilot. We all wish you the 

best and heal fast!



Joe in Oshkosh

sky_ranger161

Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 91

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Crash

Jay!



Well done my man. Thanks for sharing your story so that others can benefit from it. Because of your account, I'll definitely be incorporating some type of secondary canopy safety strap in mine. I'd heard of things like this happening, but truly now understand the consequences. Much appreciated.



Debo Cox

Nags Head, NC

Doing my best to keep my nose from pitching 60-degrees. *Gulp*



do not archive

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