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CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

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Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

I just looked at the CAN ZAC site for the 701 and the suggested engine is  the Rotax.

 Where exactly were you looking? Have a link? I have researched the Jab 3300  on a 701 and a lot of the feed back was you would have cooling issues.

  

 Joe Motis Do not archive



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

In a message dated 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  flicka401(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Anybody    have any ideas? I know that two different brothers are running two different    company's, and 	


 

  The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to allow  for easy installation of your choice of engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru  3300, Continental O-200 and more. 

  

 "Your choice of engine" is not a  recommendation.





It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

Flicka, first, if you are going to regularly post here would you please do us the courtesy of signing with at least a first name so we can call you something real.



Secondly, are you refering to the Zenair site or the CAN-ZAC website when you refer to Zenith Canada?  I don't recall ever seeing an endorsment of the Jabiru as a suggested engine on any of the Zenith websites that I have ever visited.  I have heard them wholehartedly endorsed for use on the 601/650 but never on the 701.  Admittedly though, I have not really dug into the Zenair website too deeply so I could easily be wrong about that.  Jabiru USA however, endorses the 3300 on the 701 because they want to sell us 701 builders the more expensive engine.



It all comes back to torque.  The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and therefore limited in prop length.  A shorter prop works well on a higher speed 601/650.  If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL", the longer props compatible with the 912 is going to give more performance.  If price is a concern, I think the Jab 3300 is around the same price as the 912 100hp.



Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but they have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few years.  Personally, I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a STOL engine but I have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight that he just posted shows that it is capable of getting off the ground very quickly.  I now have significanly more respect for this installation.



What it all comes down to is choice.  Lets face it, they are all good engines when they run right and all pieces of crap when they don't.  if you are looking for a good comparison of the alternatives to Rotax power, Jon Croke  (homebuilthelp.com) sells a great DVD that shows several of the competitor products.  It is well worth the price of admission.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do not archive



--- On Fri, 8/22/08, flicka750 <flicka401(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: flicka750 <flicka401(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 11:04 AM

 

 "flicka750" <flicka401(at)gmail.com>

 

 I have noticed that the USA zenair site, makes no explicit

 approval of the the JAB3300.

 

 Yet, on the CAN-ZEN site, they explicitly say that the

 JAB3300 is a suggested engine for the 701.

 

 Anybody have any ideas? I know that two different brothers

 are running two different companys, and certainly Canadians

 are comfy with the K-ROO engine.

 

 It really seems that the USA zen site is steering people

 towards Rotax for the 701, but JAB in Canada.

 

 Is the ZEN-CAN QB 701 a little stronger up front for the

 slightly higher HP? I don't really feel that the JAB3300

 is that  powerful, you have to be running at 3300rpm to get

 120HP, the 2900 (at) 100HP is more realistic.

 

 My question is that the USA vs CAN ZEN sites seem to be

 talking about two different 701's. Anybody know the

 straight story??

 

 I'm seeing MORE&MORE JAB3300's on 701's, it

 seems to be the best bang for the buck.

 

 At this point I'm assuming that both 701's are the

 same (us&can), I know Chris Heintz speaks highly of the

 JAB from his oshkosh talks, so you know its got his

 seal-of-approval.

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan differ

I also can not find the reference to the 3300 on the CanZac  site, they recommend the Rotax.

Kevin

PS Marks last name is not Heintz

do not archive

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

Jabiru engines and 701 is ok but not recomend

the problems they are having with the jabiru engines is often attributed to 

cooling,

in a fast aircraft like a Jabiru or CH601 install is ok but If I had the 

money I would have a 912S Rotax in my ch701

If I were Building a CH601 I would also have a 912S. No money S/hand 

Aircraft engine.



I have a S/Hand 912 80 HP wilt 912xtra pistons (95hp!!maybe!) and am happy 

with the Price and Performance in My 701 two up.



Graemecns

Australia



---

av8or(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

Just out of curiosity has anyone installed or considered installing an 

AeroVee VW 80hp?  It sounds like it would have the same problems as the 

J2200, but at 1/2 the cost.  



John



 	  Quote: 	
		   It all comes back to torque.  The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and 

 therefore limited in prop length.  A shorter prop works well on a higher 

 speed 601/650.  If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL", 

 the longer props compatible with the 912 is going to give more 

 performance.  If price is a concern, I think the Jab 3300 is around the 

 same price as the 912 100hp.



 Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but 

 they have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few 

 years.  Personally, I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a 

 STOL engine but I have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight 

 that he just posted shows that it is capable of getting off the ground 

 very quickly.  I now have significanly more respect for this installation.

 Do not archive

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan differ

The ZenUSA doesn't  even say JAB-3300 is a 'choice', the ZenCAN says JAB is a choice. The USA site appears to suggest that JAB is "Engine non grata'.



A 'choice' infers that it works.



I have seen the 'homebuilt alt' engine dvd's so what. I change the subject and not just answer the question?



1.) Why is does one site mention the Jab3300 and the other not?



2.) Is the ZenCan 701(QB) different or NOT? I don't think it is, thus if its the same plane, and if the 'choice' in Canada leads to a safe airplane, then why would that not be true in the USA?



Regarding the 'homebuilt alt' dvd's, they're all marketing & PR sales video-lit provided by each manufacturer. Hardly unbiased. I come here to hear from those at the end of the food chain to see how they work in the field. I don't think that vendors who are at the beginning of the food chain are credible. I have never say the guys at 'homebuilt dvd' say anything bad about anything, the love everyone; why not, everyone promote's their dvd's.



The entire homebuilt kit plane biz is about 'xxx airforce' marketing, where everyone promotes all the products. The problem is getting credible non-biased end user information.



The current EAA mag I get monthly talks about building a plane for less than $20k, yet the average is now around $60k. Reading the site at SONEX tells me they really know whats going on. Homebuilt planes aren't for little guys in shop anymore its a big buck game now where people are now spending on average more for a 'kit plane' than if they just bought a new plane.



I'm glad that Matronics has this board, I'm glad there is at least one board in the EAA homebuilt world that isn't censored and controlled by vendors. We really need to have solid answers to questions, and not just base decision on emotions and feelings.



[quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  flicka401(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Anybody    have any ideas? I know that two different brothers are running two different    company's, and 	


 

  The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to allow  for easy installation of your choice of engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru  3300, Continental O-200 and more. 

  

 "Your choice of engine" is not a  recommendation.



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

   	  Quote: 	
		  	




[quote="Joemotis(at)aol.com"]In a message dated 8/22/2008 9:06:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  flicka750 writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Anybody    have any ideas? I know that two different brothers are running two different    company's, and 	


 

  The Fsat-Build Kit is supplied "firewall-back" to allow  for easy installation of your choice of engine, including Rotax 912S,Jabiru  3300, Continental O-200 and more. 

  

 "Your choice of engine" is not a  recommendation.



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal [b]here.

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
flicka750(AT)gmail
EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" - Out of My Later Years
TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is life's most under-rated pleasure" - Letter's From Earth

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan differ

The aeroV is clearly a VW engine, and they have a record of cooling problems. That said the O-200 type engine is also air-cooled, and certainly we have all spent hours in an idling C150/152 and the engine didn't over-heat. What I'm saying is there are ways to cool air-cooled engines.



The Jabiru is a completely redesigned engine with cooling fins, the engine has a lot of aluminum. I simply don't see how the areoV or std VW engine can be compared to a JAB? The JAB is a completely different engine.



What matters here is what people who fly the planes are seeing in the field. There are people in 701's with JAB3300, what are they seeing? Certainly proper openings, cooling ducts, oil-coolers, all those variables are what count.



I have burnt up a lot of VW engines in my day, thus I can say I wouldn't want to fly around in a VW engine, but these new engines like the JAB really have nothing to do with the VW. I'm sure given that the VW design is 50+ years old, and is public domain, that the reason everyone uses that as a basic design is no royalty.



My biggest concern with the JAB is parts, as its not a VW, and not stock after-market. So this gets you back to the O-200 issue, where you can find lots of after-market parts, and use an engine that is well known for the air.



With regards to the ROTAX yeh great, BUT, and here is the big BUT, the dollar is going to continue to erode, and all ROTAX parts must be bought from rotax, even brass washers for the oil-drain cost an arm & leg. Top End overhauls are going to kill you, and a complete engine rebuild. All the parts on the ROTAX are complicated. Yeh, great engine. Just hope that all its problems get caught while your in warranty.



Soon the ROTAX will be $40k, and it will be like $500 for minor parts, ROTAX has strong lawyers in the USA. I don't see any inexpensive after-market OEM parts coming down the line, do any of you?



For 'rich people' who buy RV's its not a problem, the new RV-12 is going to use the 912S, and will cost $80k to build, you even have to pay for each pop-rivet. For 'poor people' I don't think the ROTAX is going to be a choice, unless you plan on feeding your rotax and starving your family.



 	  av8or(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  Just out of curiosity has anyone installed or considered installing an 

AeroVee VW 80hp?  It sounds like it would have the same problems as the 

J2200, but at 1/2 the cost.  



John



 	  Quote: 	
		   It all comes back to torque.  The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and 

 therefore limited in prop length.  A shorter prop works well on a higher 

 speed 601/650.  If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL", 

 the longer props compatible with the 912 is going to give more 

 performance.  If price is a concern, I think the Jab 3300 is around the 

 same price as the 912 100hp.



 Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but 

 they have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few 

 years.  Personally, I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a 

 STOL engine but I have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight 

 that he just posted shows that it is capable of getting off the ground 

 very quickly.  I now have significanly more respect for this installation.

 Do not archive

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan differ

The jab 2200 is about $13k, the 3300 is about $15k,



The rotax 912 80 is about $18k, the rotax 912s 100 is now over $20k,



The jab 3300 is 6 cylinder, which distributes the heat of each cylinder on average.



An interesting question, are the Australians buying tons of Rotaxes? Or are they buying Jab's?



My biggest concern with the Jab is parts, how do you get parts in the middle of no-where, and will their proprietary engine be around in 5-10 years?



 	  dougsnash wrote: 	
		  Flicka, first, if you are going to regularly post here would you please do us the courtesy of signing with at least a first name so we can call you something real.



Secondly, are you refering to the Zenair site or the CAN-ZAC website when you refer to Zenith Canada?  I don't recall ever seeing an endorsment of the Jabiru as a suggested engine on any of the Zenith websites that I have ever visited.  I have heard them wholehartedly endorsed for use on the 601/650 but never on the 701.  Admittedly though, I have not really dug into the Zenair website too deeply so I could easily be wrong about that.  Jabiru USA however, endorses the 3300 on the 701 because they want to sell us 701 builders the more expensive engine.



It all comes back to torque.  The Jabiru is a direct drive engine and therefore limited in prop length.  A shorter prop works well on a higher speed 601/650.  If you want to hop out of the hole quickly as in "STOL", the longer props compatible with the 912 is going to give more performance.  If price is a concern, I think the Jab 3300 is around the same price as the 912 100hp.



Now the 80hp Jabiru is a bit cheaper that either of the 912 Rotaxes but they have lost quite a bit of their price advantage over the last few years.  Personally, I would not have even considered the Jabiru 80hp as a STOL engine but I have to admit the pictures of George Race's first flight that he just posted shows that it is capable of getting off the ground very quickly.  I now have significanly more respect for this installation.



What it all comes down to is choice.  Lets face it, they are all good engines when they run right and all pieces of crap when they don't.  if you are looking for a good comparison of the alternatives to Rotax power, Jon Croke  (homebuilthelp.com) sells a great DVD that shows several of the competitor products.  It is well worth the price of admission.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do not archive



--- On Fri, 8/22/08, flicka750 <flicka401> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: flicka750 <flicka401>

 Subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 11:04 AM

 

 "flicka750" <flicka401>

 

 I have noticed that the USA zenair site, makes no explicit

 approval of the the JAB3300.

 

 Yet, on the CAN-ZEN site, they explicitly say that the

 JAB3300 is a suggested engine for the 701.

 

 Anybody have any ideas? I know that two different brothers

 are running two different companys, and certainly Canadians

 are comfy with the K-ROO engine.

 

 It really seems that the USA zen site is steering people

 towards Rotax for the 701, but JAB in Canada.

 

 Is the ZEN-CAN QB 701 a little stronger up front for the

 slightly higher HP? I don't really feel that the JAB3300

 is that  powerful, you have to be running at 3300rpm to get

 120HP, the 2900 (at) 100HP is more realistic.

 

 My question is that the USA vs CAN ZEN sites seem to be

 talking about two different 701's. Anybody know the

 straight story??

 

 I'm seeing MORE&MORE JAB3300's on 701's, it

 seems to be the best bang for the buck.

 

 At this point I'm assuming that both 701's are the

 same (us&can), I know Chris Heintz speaks highly of the

 JAB from his oshkosh talks, so you know its got his

 seal-of-approval.

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan differ

People are doing it.



Perhaps if we all chip in some coin, we can pay somebody out there in 701-land to report back that has a jab-3300 in his 701 if he's flying?



If nobody responds, then we know in all cases it was a suicide mission.



It could be such a small-world on this board, that nobody actually flys a 701, or own a jab-3300? I'm beginning to think that the latter is the case.



Yes, if I had unlimited money I would buy a brand new super-cub from Piper. ( Pay the right people $100M, and I'm sure they would pull out the jigs )



That said, given I'm just a poor old stump-farmer, I have to build my own STOL. The whole point of kit-building is to have a plane that you know inside & out, that cost significantly less than new. Today's kit-building world with all the retiring HELOC ( easy home equity money, foreclosure on Real estate ) 'rich people' has destroyed the ability to build an airplane for cheap.



I'm down to the 750 w/ the MAT 0-200, or the 701 w/ the Jab-3300.



If the 750 full kit was shipping today, I would just do it. Trouble is it ain't. The 701 full kit is shipping, with  a three month back-order.



The 701 locks up $6500 ( 1/2 up front to order up front ), the 750 locks up $10k ( 1/2 up front  cash). Zenith doesn't mess around. It's a marriage, obviously uncle-heintz is a smart businessman.



I'm always leery to give someone 100% of their profit before a job is even done. The delivery of the 701 is a known un-known, the delivery of the 750 is unknown-unknown, and its never a good idea to own a first-generation of anything iPhones, or Cabbage Patch Dolls.

 	  graeme(at)coletoolcentre. wrote: 	
		  Jabiru engines and 701 is ok but not recomend

the problems they are having with the jabiru engines is often attributed to 

cooling,

in a fast aircraft like a Jabiru or CH601 install is ok but If I had the 

money I would have a 912S Rotax in my ch701

If I were Building a CH601 I would also have a 912S. No money S/hand 

Aircraft engine.



I have a S/Hand 912 80 HP wilt 912xtra pistons (95hp!!maybe!) and am happy 

with the Price and Performance in My 701 two up.



Graemecns

Australia



---

n752ms(at)softcom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: CH-701 + Jabiru 3300 - why is zenusa & zencan different?

Well flicka, I guess you just answered your own question.  No 

first-generation for you, so order the 701 and get on with it.



Mark S.

701/912uls

a few more days painting

then final assembly



and its never a good idea to own a first-generation of anything iPhones, or 

Cabbage Patch Dolls.



---

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