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Emergency Tank leak?
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skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Hello all,,,



went out to the cj the other day and the emerg tank is at zero.  The main tank has 40atms... but bleeds down fairly rapidly once I open it and if the engine is not running.



With the engine running, I easily pump up to 60 in the main, and almost 70 in the emerg tank.



Ideas as to where the emerg tank maybe leaking?



thanks

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

If it's not the tank,  lines to/from, valve etc., check the  gauge.  Our's had a leak where the inlet fitting attached to the back some  years ago.

  

  In a message dated 8/22/2008 3:04:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  bourgem(at)cia.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "skidmk" <bourgem(at)cia.com>



Hello    all,,,



went out to the cj the other day and the emerg tank is at    zero.  The main tank has 40atms... but bleeds down fairly rapidly once I    open it and if the engine is not running.



With the engine running, I    easily pump up to 60 in the main, and almost 70 in the emerg    tank.



Ideas as to where the emerg tank maybe    leaking?



thanks



--------

Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot;    Bourget

Ottawa, Ontario





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199982#199982

	




It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

The gage is one spot but there is also a check valve on the forward fire  wall that could be leaking.  The rubber pad on the end of the brass cup can  become hard and crack.  With your compressor working fine and building up  pressure though that check valve but once your compressor shut down, the air is  held in the emerg tank by that check valve. 

  

  In a message dated 8/22/2008 6:21:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  KingCJ6(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     If it's not the tank,  lines to/from, valve etc., check the    gauge.  Our's had a leak where the inlet fitting attached to the back    some years ago.

    

      In a message dated 8/22/2008 3:04:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,    bourgem(at)cia.com writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  -->      Yak-List message posted by: "skidmk" <bourgem(at)cia.com>



Hello      all,,,



went out to the cj the other day and the emerg tank is at      zero.  The main tank has 40atms... but bleeds down fairly rapidly once      I open it and if the engine is not running.



With the engine running,      I easily pump up to 60 in the main, and almost 70 in the emerg      tank.



Ideas as to where the emerg tank maybe      leaking?



thanks



--------

Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot;      Bourget

Ottawa, Ontario





Read this topic online      here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199982#199982

	




         It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Mike your scaring the hell out of me, if your gauges are correct your really tempting fate.  Just so it's really clear 1ATM is equal to 14.6596PSI.

  

 14.6596 X 60atm = 879 PSI  

 70atm=1026 PSI. 

 Normal pop off setting is 45ATMS which is  659.68 PSI.  So if your guages are correct your driving a bomb around!  Check out the location of the tank and just imagine what would happen it it exploded.

  

 It's no wonder your devoloping leaks when your pushing your air system to those numbers.  I am sure it's leaking in places which are going to be a bugger to find, but those leaks may be the only thing saving your life!  Your playing with a bomb here, and when it finally reaches is bursting point it will not be pretty.  Have you seen the photo of the Yak 50 whose air tank tank exploded  (on the ground) under "normal" pressure (45 ATMS)?   Get your guages checked, once you know how they are reading reduce your pop off pressure to 45 to 50 ATMS.  Get a ultra sonic leak dectector and solve the leak problems.    If in fact you are running at those pressures and you continue to run the aircraft, you will, sooner than later have a huge problem.  Rather it will be a catastrophic failure of one of the tanks or just a line, it is impossible to say, but it WILL happen if you don't back off the pressure.

   

 Good luck,

  

  

 

 

 On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:03 PM, skidmk <bourgem(at)cia.com (bourgem(at)cia.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "skidmk" <bourgem(at)cia.com (bourgem(at)cia.com)>

 

Hello all,,,



went out to the cj the other day and the emerg tank is at zero.  The main tank has 40atms... but bleeds down fairly rapidly once I open it and if the engine is not running.



With the engine running, I easily pump up to 60 in the main, and almost 70 in the emerg tank.

 

Ideas as to where the emerg tank maybe leaking?



thanks



--------

Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

Ottawa, Ontario





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199982#199982

 s such as List Un/Subscription,

 tronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ms.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



	




 

-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644



  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Hi Mike;



I see Doug has already responded to your post. I sincerely hope you have 

read that.

Also assume you have the Tech Specs Manual. There is an air system schematic 

there that you will need. You should not be flying the aircraft until you 

have done a complete inspection of the entire system, replaced any U/S 

components and reset the press. relief valve to 45 ATM's.



Walt



---

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Emergency Tank leak?

things that make you go hmmmm... okay... grounded till I fix it.  The leak sounds like its coming from the right side lower console.... maybe at the gauge,,,



a little history,, 83 hours since the annual in April.  The check valve on the firewall was replaced.  It was (as per the log) tested and set to 45 atm.  Beginning of May, I flew her to Easton, and saw 60 atm normally (after 45 to 60 minutes of flight)... I adjusted the check valve to a lower value,,, but has since climbed again to show 60+ values after 50-60 minutes.



This check valve was new, from Doug I think,, is it possible it was not properly adjusted?.... How do you adjust,, build up pressure, land adjust etc...?  cause I think that is what was done.



Checking the gauges sounds like a useless endeavor,, both gauges have been registering the same after flight pressures (emergency gauge)



M

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

How many times have you replaced the water filters in that 83 Hrs.?



Walt

---

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:54 am Post subject: Re: Emergency Tank leak?

I have not. my understanding was at annual (100hours)  Upon checking the list, I now understand 25 hours is more in order to clean and verify?

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Mike,

 The CJ's system is not quite the same as the Yak  52's. The CJ's compressor refills both the main and emergency  bottles.  There are more components in the CJ6's system than  the 52.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Mike - after you disassemble and clean/lube the valve, adjustment is an  easy, 5 minute on-the-ground procedure.  

  

 Open the main valve and bleed the pressure to below 40 by cycling the  flaps.  Loosen the adjustment lock nut on the end of the valve. Hook up  your external air source and slowly turn on, they adjust the pop-off valve screw  so it starts "popping" at 43-45,  then tighten the lock nut.  Check  for functionality on the ground by again bleeding below 40 and refilling with  the external tank.

  

 Dave

  

  In a message dated 8/22/2008 8:14:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  skidmk(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  This    check valve was new, from Doug I think,, is it possible it was not properly    adjusted?.... How do you adjust,, build up pressure, land adjust  etc...? 	




It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

The periodicity for water filter replacement is a function of hours flown 

AND humidity. In some climates (Florida?) it may be 5 hrs. or less and in 

others (Arizona?) maybe 50 Hrs.

It is also totally dependant on draining the snot valve after every engine 

operation.



Start with the water filter.  That will give an indication of what you may 

find downstream.



Walt

---

sajdds(at)COMCAST.NET
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Given the symilarities between the CJ and the Yak 52 has anyone formed an opinion on whether the water filter is worth having? Should I add one to my 52? The 52 seems OK without one so maybe they are not needed in the CJ.

  

 --

Steve Johnson 

Yak 52 

9900X 

0B5 

413 522-1130 Cell

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca> 



[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: Walter Lannon 

 

 The periodicity for water filter replacement is a function of hours flown 

 AND humidity. In some climates (Florida?) it may be 5 hrs. or less and in 

 others (Arizona?) maybe 50 Hrs. 

 It is also totally dependant on draining the snot valve after every engine 

 operation. 

 

 Start with the water filter. That will give an indication of what you may 

 find downstream. 

 

 Walt 

 ---

Rich Langer

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Florida

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Emergency Tank leak?

Does the pop off valve set the emergency tank pressure along with main tank pressure  or is there another place to adjust emergency pressure? Also, how do you check your gages for accuracy? My rear gage is 10 Atms more than the front cockpit gage and my main gage shows 43 Atm.  Thanks .   

                  Rich Langer

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

On the CJ-6 the pop off valve sets the pressure in both the main tank and  the emergency tank.  

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

   

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Rich Langer"    <rlanger2(at)comcast.net>



Does the pop off valve set the emergency    tank pressure along with main tank pressure  or is there another place to    adjust emergency pressure? Also, how do you check your gages for accuracy? My    rear gage is 10 Atms more than the front cockpit gage and my main gage shows    43 Atm.  Thanks .   

                     Rich Langer





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=200144#200144

	




It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Yes for the CJ. No, I think, for the Yak52.

 Typically the Emerg. tank in the CJ will hold about 5 ATM's more than the 

main. Both are being equally charged but the Emerg. system is small (i.e. 

less components) and usually leak free compared to the main (much larger and 

never leak free). At least that is my theory.

That is the reason for the recommendation to adjust the press. to 45 rather 

than 50 ATM's.



The pressure guage has a removable VERY small restrictor screwed into the 

fitting on the instrument, remove that and check for blockage. Soaking in 

lacquer thinner and shop air usually works to open it. Just don't blow the 

thing away--- it is VERY SMALL.

That could solve the gauge difference.

To check accuracy you need a known calibrated gauge on an external pressure 

source for comparison.



Walt



---

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

I am surprised.  Would have assumed they all  had a water filter. Comments Dennis???

  

 Walt

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

The Yak has a very small filter screen at the base of the T fitting the pop off valve is attached to.  

Doc   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

 Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:32 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Emergency Tank leak?  

  

  

     

I am surprised.  Would have assumed they all had a water filter. Comments Dennis???  

    

   

    

Walt  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: sajdds(at)comcast.net (sajdds(at)comcast.net)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 10:54 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Emergency Tank leak?  

    

   

    

Given the symilarities between the CJ and the Yak 52 has anyone formed an opinion on whether the water filter is worth having? Should I add one to my 52? The 52 seems OK without one so maybe they are not needed in the CJ.  

    

   

    

--

 Steve Johnson 

 Yak 52 

 9900X 

 0B5 

 413 522-1130 Cell  

    

   

  [quote]  

-------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca> 

 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: Walter Lannon 

 > 

 > The periodicity for water filter replacement is a function of hours flown 

 > AND humidity. In some climates (Florida?) it may be 5 hrs. or less and in 

 > others (Arizona?) maybe 50 Hrs. 

 > It is also totally dependant on draining the snot valve after every engine 

 > operation. 

 > 

 > Start with the water filter. That will give an indication of what you may 

 > find downstream. 

 > 

 > Walt 

 > ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

The 52 does not have a water filter as the CJ does.  It  only has a very small air filter.  Some people have installed Doug's  SS filter.  But not many.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

A brass screen about the size of a penny.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:23 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Emergency Tank leak?  

  

  

     

The 52 does not have a water filter as the CJ does.  It only has a very small air filter.  Some people have installed Doug's SS filter.  But not many.  

    

Dennis  

    

   

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Walter Lannon (wlannon(at)persona.ca)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:32 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Emergency Tank leak?  

    

   

    

I am surprised.  Would have assumed they all had a water filter. Comments Dennis???  

    

   

    

Walt  

  [quote]    

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: sajdds(at)comcast.net (sajdds(at)comcast.net)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 10:54 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Re: Emergency Tank leak?  

    

   

    

Given the symilarities between the CJ and the Yak 52 has anyone formed an opinion on whether the water filter is worth having? Should I add one to my 52? The 52 seems OK without one so maybe they are not needed in the CJ.  

    

   

    

--

 Steve Johnson 

 Yak 52 

 9900X 

 0B5 

 413 522-1130 Cell  

    

   

  [quote]  

-------------- Original message -------------- 

 From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca> 

 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: Walter Lannon 

 > 

 > The periodicity for water filter replacement is a function of hours flown 

 > AND humidity. In some climates (Florida?) it may be 5 hrs. or less and in 

 > others (Arizona?) maybe 50 Hrs. 

 > It is also totally dependant on draining the snot valve after every engine 

 > operation. 

 > 

 > Start with the water filter. That will give an indication of what you may 

 > find downstream. 

 > 

 > Walt 

 > ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Emergency Tank leak?

Mike, if you are pumping up to 60 Atmospheres in the main and 70

atmospheres in the emergency tank you are running just about 300 PSI

beyond maximum recommended pressure in your system.  



DO NOT FIX THE LEAK!   



Have a qualified mechanic set the pop-off valve so it will simply NOT

develop over 50 Atmospheres.  



After you have done that, continue to try finding the leak.  



Continuing to allow that kind of system pressure is very simply....

Irresponsible.   Not only is your safety at risk, but also those that

may be in the immediate vicinity of the aircraft.  



Although unsolicited really, here is another thought.  Compressed air

can be dangerous.  1000 psi of compressed air can actually slice right

through human skin and into the soft tissue.  Anyone who works with and

troubleshoots this kind of pressure in the military has to be CERTIFIED

to do so.  Since you had no idea how dangerous 70 atmospheres is, it is

conceivable that you have no experience working with high pressure air

either.  



Sometimes the "right thing to do" is to hire a certified mechanic to do

the job.  Sometimes it is also the legal thing to do as well.  Think it

over carefully.  At the very minimum, if you attempt repairs of this

nature, it should be done under the direct supervision on an A&P.  Not

an "inspection after the fact".  



Mark Bitterlich

  



--

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