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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

At my wits end... which in my case might not be all that far.....



I am having problems with my hydraulic brake cylinder and cannot figure it

out. Trying to resolve ground looping problems - always to the right - I

discovered that the left brake "fades" quickly so on applying brakes on a

short runway I sometimes ended up slow-looping to the right despite pressing

as hard as I can on the left brake.



In a previous post I asked how to top up the fluid and did the

pump-from-the-bottom-til-it-squirts-out-the-top thing and it seemed to be

better on quick-stop tests, until I looped again. I have attached a picture

of the cylinder as I don't know the manufacturer.



I took apart both cylinders, the left one had an O ring at the top that was

the wrong size and not seated properly. I thought "aha!" and replaced that O

ring on both with proper sized, and also the ring on the piston. Cleaned

both thoroughly, pumped old fluid out of the system bottom-to-top,

re-installed both cylinders and pumped til it came out the top screw, and

tested. Right one fine - left one makes gurgle noises and goes full travel,

no fluid leaks. Once it bottoms out - no more left brake.



I disassembled the left one again, filled it with fluid with no parts in it

to ensure no air, put parts in and sealed the outlet rather than attach the

brakeline, reassembled and pushed on the plunger and it still bottoms out

with gurgles. All parts are identical in both cylinders, seem to fit the

same, yet one develops pressure and the other gurgles (sound of fluid

through an orifice more accurately). 



I see there is a hole in the piston and that if pressure is placed on it in

compression it seals, at least it does when I lip test it. The spring in the

piston tube that provides that pressure is loose and springy as it should

be. Testing both cylinders the same way they appear to be the same.



I'm stumped - any ideas what to check next? All

guesses/wisdom/answers/advice appreciated in advance.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa

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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

Bob,

Not an expert, but it sounds to me like you are on the right track with the

hole through the piston. Can you possible find a way to plug it temporarily

and re-try your test, if there is no fade you found out where it is going,

then you just need to figure out why, maybe switch the spring from the other

brake. I was also going to add that when I purge my brakes I have a small

submersible pump in a can of brake fluid and a hose coming off the top of my

reservoir back to the can of fluid, as I cycle fluid through I work both

brake cylinders for that brake. Works very well.

Lloyd C

KF 5 912 

IVO IFA   

Workin in it

At my wits end... which in my case might not be all that far.....



I am having problems with my hydraulic brake cylinder and cannot figure it

out. Trying to resolve ground looping problems - always to the right - I

discovered that the left brake "fades" quickly so on applying brakes on a

short runway I sometimes ended up slow-looping to the right despite pressing

as hard as I can on the left brake.

 



Checked by AVG. 

7:29 AM

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am having problems with my hydraulic brake cylinder and cannot figure it 

out. Trying to resolve ground looping problems - always to the right - I 

discovered that the left brake "fades" quickly so on applying brakes 	




Bob, just to be sure we are not overlooking something basic I will go ahead and ask it.  The brake line in your photo appears to be full of either air or clear brake fluid.  You are using red aviation brake fluid MIL-H-5606, right?

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

No <embarrassed(?)>. I couldn't find a source so I went back to the Kitfox

manual which states "non-synthetic" so I found a "special purpose" brake

fluid that is petroleum based. And clear. For what it's worth the fluid I

pumped out of both sides was clear, and both had a section part way through

that came out dark with sediment.



So - would clear petroleum-based fluid as called for in the manual be bad?

And if so where would I get the proper stuff? As I said before I replaced

all rubber O rings but other than the one that was the wrong size I couldn't

see any difference between old and new.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

That was my next thought Lloyd - exchange parts, especially the piston,

between working and non-working. I need to buy more brake fluid first though

to do that test as I haven't been keeping the test fluid clean enough to

re-use. And exactly what fluid to use is the subject of a response I am

awaiting from Tom Jones, although other than viscosity I can't see how it

might affect the problem. I'll try anything!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

kitfoxnick

Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Maryland

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Hi Bob This is off topic but I flew into 8N7 on Saturday to see if you were there, neat little airport a bit of a ghost town.  There is a Tail wheel fly in at Shreveport North this weekend.  The airport is north west of York I'm going with some guys from shoestring (0P2).  Maybe another Kitfox and an Avid should be fun.  Hope to see you there.

Nick W.

_________________
Nick Weiskopf
Norrisville, MD
kitfox !V-1200
Rotax 912ul

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  That was my next thought Lloyd - exchange parts, especially the piston,

between working and non-working. I need to buy more brake fluid first though

to do that test as I haven't been keeping the test fluid clean enough to

re-use. And exactly what fluid to use is the subject of a response I am

awaiting from Tom Jones, although other than viscosity I can't see how it

might affect the problem. I'll try anything!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



-- 	




The seals in aircraft brakes will deteriorate with DOT Brake fluid.  Do a google search on aviation brake fluid and you will find many arguments for and against this.  I won't go near even a discussion on the subject except to say the manual says use Aviation Red brake fluid.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

Thanks for the invite Nick, give me a shout next time though. I'm down for a

little maintenance at the moment - fixing that left brake because the next

ground loop might not be as forgiving, and installing a gas sight-tube so I

know *exactly* how much is left. Then my headsets need fixing... Tomorrow I

am taking some ground school because I realise that it's been more than 20

years since I flew seriously in US airspace and I need to be sharper than I

am at the moment. Then I need to finish my hours of new Airworthiness Cert

before leaving 8N7. Busy, busy!



McGinnis (8N7) doesn't get but a few airplanes a year but George McGinnis is

a great old pilot (94 now, pilot in spirit) and I am currently his only

customer. He has no facilities but his son keeps the field mowed. I keep my

Kitfox in my barn across the river and trailer it over to Columbia, was

there 3 times last week. If you're flying over and see an empty trailer by

the windsock I'm there, drop in and visit. In the meantime keep me informed

on fly-ins and I'll join in just as soon as I'm safe and the airplane's

ready.



Do not archive



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

That's why I replaced the seals first thing Tom, but I can't say they showed

any signs of problems. DOT brake fluid is a synthetic, I am careful to use

non-synthetic at the moment but will certainly use aviation red if someone

points me to a source. 



Unfortunately the seals are not the problem, I was hoping they were = easy

fix.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

corbob13

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Pulaski, WI

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Bob,

What you're looking for is MIL-5606 fluid.  You can get it from Wicks, AS&S or any of those places.  I recently bled the brakes ion my plane, and like you found the problem to be something other than what I repaired.  There was a Matco service bulletin from the mid-nineties that wasn't complied with on my plane so my brakes get to be a little touchy as they warm up.  The exact opposite of the problem you're facing.



Cory

_________________
Cory

N903DB
Kitfox Model II, Rotax 582

kitfox(at)ida.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: Give me a brake!

Bob

Do not recognize the cylender. But here is an idea. I think there is a valve 

in the piston. It sounds like it is in backwards or missing. Something like 

a check valve. It lets you build pressure one way and flows the other way. 

It may be as simple as a ball that is crimped into a hole through the 

piston. Something to check.

Albert

MudLake, Id.

Mod 5TD, NSIT, Cap

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Bob, those are matco brakes.  You can get the re-build kit for around 15.00.  I re-built mine.  Check the bottom of the plunger and make sure the little round rubber disk is still in place.  The o-rings need to be Buna-n or they will deteriorate fast.  



http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder13a.jpg



This is the link to the parts break down for the master.  This shows the new model master, but the note calls out the parts needed for the old style that you and I both have.  If you call matco and tell them what you have the tech guy is real cool and will hook you right up with the parts you need.  The ship real fast too.  Any airport FBO should have some 5606 brake fluid.



www.matcomfg.com



Matco contact info.



Contact Us:



NEW ADDRESS EFFECTIVE 3-19-07

2361 South 1560 West

Woods Cross, UT 84087 USA

(801) 335-0582

(801) 335-0581 Fax



tech(at)MATCOmfg.com

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Another thought.  I think the little rubber "plug" on the bottom of the plunger may be the problem.  When you get the re-build kit, you have to glue the rubber disk on, then sand it off to XX measurement (sorry I am at work and wont be home to pull the directions till the 5th)  I though well crap, what they call for is only a few thousands less than what it comes out to be when you glue the whole thing on so I don't need to sand it.... well you could not fill from the bottom up as those few thousandths was enough to block the hole.  I then sanded it off, put it back together and it did the same thing you are describing.. I was pissed as one side worked and the other didn't and I knew darn good and well I had put them both together the same... Well when I pulled it back apart, I had flipped something over on the left one just as I think you have, but I cant remember exactly what it was (I did it last year).. At any rate, I bet you just flipped something over when you had it apart.



Hopefully this will help you out.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

http://matco.elixirlabs.com/users/matco/images/mastercylinder1a.jpg



Order rebuild kit MCMCRBD1. 



Sorry for the multiple posts, but a little more digging on the matco site and I found the master you have.  Here is the proper drawing for it.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Bob, 



I think you asked once before about brakes few months ago and I posted this link for you   http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html



You might have killed your seals and might have to renew all seals including calipers and master cylinders.   I would first get a quart or 2 of the proper MIL SPEC oil and drain your oils and refresh it with new and try it.  



Also I would check that your Calipers slide. If one is seized then you will have less braking pressure from that caliper. 



As far as your ground looping -- your brakes are likely to not be the culprit.  Try without brakes and since you should have independent control of each toe brake then you should be able to apply more evenly . 



When I am taxing in larger airports with a strong crosswind I have to ride one brake sometimes but have never got brake fade.  



If you are calling Matco for seal kits them order new pads as well.  The guy at the MATCO service desk is real helpful and has alot of experience with Avids and Kitfoxes. I think his name is George.



Dave

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Give me a brake!

Bob:

  

 I've had the same experience as you and Lenny's advice is spot on. I'll bet you a beer it's the Buna-N plug that's the culprit. Your master cylinder is a Matco MC-1. The rebuild kit is p/n MCRBD1 available cheaply from Matco.

  

 The plud is glued to the piston with any fast setting adhesive designed for a petroleul environment. Matco recommends Loctite Black Max. Plug is then trimmed to length per instructions included with the kit.

  

 If the rubber boot is worn, save it! They don't use it in the newer models and no longer supply replacements. Here's the contact stuff I have:

  

 George R. Happ

 MATCO mfg

 801-486-7574 801-486-7581 (F)

 www.matcomfg.com

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box

  

  

  

  

 



--- On Tue, 8/26/08, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Give me a brake!

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 11:29 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"

<akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>



Another thought.  I think the little rubber "plug" on the bottom of

the plunger may be the problem.  When you get the re-build kit, you have to glue

the rubber disk on, then sand it off to XX measurement (sorry I am at work and

wont be home to pull the directions till the 5th)  I though well crap, what they

call for is only a few thousands less than what it comes out to be when you glue

the whole thing on so I don't need to sand it.... well you could not fill

from the bottom up as those few thousandths was enough to block the hole.  I

then sanded it off, put it back together and it did the same thing you are

describing.. I was pissed as one side worked and the other didn't and I knew

darn good and well I had put them both together the same... Well when I pulled

it back apart, I had flipped something over on the left one just as I think you

have, but I cant remember exactly what it was (I did it last year).. At any

rate, I bet you just flipped something over when you had it a!

 part.



Hopefully this will help you out.



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry

Soldotna AK

Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1260

95% complete





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0830#200830





	
	


         [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Give me a brake!

Thanks Dave - you always come up with a variety of possibilities that others

may not have thought of and I appreciate it.



I got a quart of the proper Aeroshell MIL-5606 today from a local FBO who

happened to have a 1/4 full gallon can so I was lucky. I will purge both

systems and use that. The non-synth oil was only in for a few days although

I can't be sure what the previous owner used, but it wasn't bright red.



I will order the rebuild kits from Matco and replace all seals in the master

cylinders. The calipers appear to be fine, as I stated earlier I tested the

faulty cylinder stand-alone so as to eliminate the other possibilities you

mention below. From the links Leonard Perry sent it is almost certainly the

plug in the piston that is bad and I suspect it has been bad since I have

owned the plane.



Regarding ground loops - I thought it was me but in retrospect it only

happened when braking on a short roll-out, I applied brakes evenly (I

thought!) but then the hydraulic pressure in the left brake faded as the

piston leaks = all right brake going at 20mph. Try it - you'll loop too!



Thanks again,

Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Give me a brake!

Leonard - I think you've hit it square on the head mate! These links are

invaluable and I will be ordering the repair kits for both cylinders

immediately. I also managed to score a quart of the proper Aeroshell brake

fluid so I will be replacing the fluid in both systems.



One thing though - I couldn't see how to disconnect the piston from the rod

to get to that plug, as far as I can see the piston is on a ball joint of

some sort. Hopefully the kit will provide instructions how to get to that

plug unless any of you have already done a rebuild like this?



Thanks again for the help - I love this list!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Give me a brake!

Thanks Marco - You would win that beer for sure, what's  your favorite<g>?

  

 Have you removed the piston from the rod to get to that  plug on your own equipment? I would like to inspect it asap just to be certain  it is the culprit, but I am afraid of breaking the swivel  joint.

  

 I will save the boots thanks, I save  everything...

  

  

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA  Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

  

 

 

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco  Menezes

Sent: 27 August 2008 9:42 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Give me a  brake!

 

                   Bob:

        

       I've had the same experience as you and Lenny's        advice is spot on. I'll bet you a beer it's the Buna-N plug        that's the culprit. Your master cylinder is a Matco MC-1. The rebuild kit        is p/n MCRBD1 available cheaply from Matco.

        

       The plud is glued to the piston with any fast setting adhesive        designed for a petroleul environment. Matco recommends Loctite Black Max.        Plug is then trimmed to length per instructions included with the        kit.

        

       If the rubber boot is worn, save it! They don't use it in the        newer models and no longer supply replacements. Here's the contact stuff I        have:

        

       George R. Happ

       MATCO mfg

       801-486-7574 801-486-7581 (F)

       www.matcomfg.com

        

       Marco Menezes N99KX

       Model 2 582-90 C-Box

        

        

        

        

       



--- On Tue, 8/26/08, akflyer        <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



        	  Quote: 	
		  From:          akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Give          me a brake!

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August          26, 2008, 11:29 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"

<akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>



Another thought.  I think the little rubber "plug" on the bottom of

the plunger may be the problem.  When you get the re-build kit, you have to glue

the rubber disk on, then sand it off to XX measurement (sorry I am at work and

wont be home to pull the directions till the 5th)  I though well crap, what they

call for is only a few thousands less than what it comes out to be when you glue

the whole thing on so I don't need to sand it.... well you could not fill

from the bottom up as those few thousandths was enough to block the hole.  I

then sanded it off, put it back together and it did the same thing you are

describing.. I was pissed as one side worked and the other didn't and I knew

darn good and well I had put them both together the same... Well when I pulled

it back apart, I had flipped something over on the left one just as I think you

have, but I cant remember exactly what it was (I did it last year).. At any

rate, I bet you just flipped something over when you had it a!

 part.



Hopefully this will help you out.



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry

Soldotna AK

Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1260

95% complete





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=200830#200830





	
	


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[b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Give me a brake!

Bob, there is a little snap ring that holds it in.  Take a look at the pic in the link and you will see it.  It is a little tiny bugger that I just used two picks to pull out.

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