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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Does anyone know what thickness of lexan is best to use for the windscreen

and door windows? My KF2 has two stress cracks near the leading edge wing

root so I don't trust measuring what is on there now, and I know from the

logbook that it has been replaced once since the original build.



I am looking at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/lexan.php

where the choices are .060, .080, .093, and .125



Thanks in advance!



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Windsceen Lexan

Bob, 



060  will work and easy to work with

it will flex over  75 mph .

I have .125 and it is harder to work with. 



Make sure you smooth the edges well as cracks can propagate from Lexan if not smoothed . 

Dave

_________________
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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Thanks Dave,



So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have a

micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little over 75,

so it must be .060(?)



There are some fairly sharp curves on my KF2, which is where the cracks

occurred. I am planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut the new

with a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

smooth the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit to drill

the rivet holes is important too, don't want any cracks there. A

metal-drilling bit?



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Dave C You want a dull bit that won't grab. ACS sells a special  plexi bit C but I didn't use one. You can heat the material with a heat gun also then it is not brittle. I don't remember how hot I got it. I used a laser thermometer to test to get right temp in practice and then heated to that temp before drilling. Worked good for me.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen Lexan

 Date: Mon C 25 Aug 2008 18:25:07 -0400

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 Thanks Dave C

 

 So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have a

 micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little over 75 C

 so it must be .060(?)

 

 There are some fairly sharp curves on my KF2 C which is where the cracks

 occurred. I am planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut the new

 with a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

 smooth the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit to drill

 the rivet holes is important too C don't want any cracks there. A

 metal-drilling bit?

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

 --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

NO to the metal-drilling bit. I got my bits from LP Aeroplastics  

(along with one of their windshields), but you could try grinding a  

pretty sharp point on a metal bit....here's what it should look like:



The included angle should be 60°....unlike a regular metal-cutting  

drill of 118° included angle, and the rake angle should be 0°...in  

other words, the drill should have no rake angle. That's why the  

front of the cutting edge looks flat in this picture. A plastic drill  

should "scrape" the material away instead of "cutting" it like a  

metal drill  does.



The material that came with my plane was 0.093".



  As always, try on some scrap first.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 25, 2008, at 6:25 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Thanks Dave,



 So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have a

 micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little  

 over 75,

 so it must be .060(?)



 There are some fairly sharp curves on my KF2, which is where the  

 cracks

 occurred. I am planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut  

 the new

 with a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

 smooth the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit  

 to drill

 the rivet holes is important too, don't want any cracks there. A

 metal-drilling bit?



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Windsceen Lexan

Bob,  My opinion is use .93 for the windshield and .60 for the doors.  Thats' what came with my kit.  Here's a link to a service bulletin about the windshield thickness.  It describes some problems with installing the thicker windshields and how to prevent cracking of them.

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb34.htm

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Excellent information Lynn, thanks for the "tip" (pun most definitely

intended). I see that LP Aeroplastics also has foam and tape and other

things that I will need. And I will go with the 0.93 lexan.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Pat,

  

 I was thinking that the previous owner hadn't heated the current  windscreen properly, or probably not at all, which is why I am getting stress  cracks. In general the recommendation for lexan, that I have seen, is to not try  to work with it at all under 70F. I am thinking the warmer the day the better  for working with lexan. And warm days in the UK.... well let's just say it's a  rarity!

  

  

Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox 

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa 



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick  reilly

Sent: 25 August 2008 6:40 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

 

Dave, You want a dull bit that won't grab. ACS sells a special   plexi bit, but I didn't use one. You can heat the material with a heat gun also  then it is not brittle. I don't remember how hot I got it. I used a laser  thermometer to test to get right temp in practice and then heated to that temp  before drilling. Worked good for me.

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582  Rebuild

Rockford, IL



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:25:07 -0400

 

 -->  Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan"  <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 Thanks Dave,

  

 So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have  a

 micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little  over 75,

 so it must be .060(?)

 

 There are some fairly  sharp curves on my KF2, which is where the cracks

 occurred. I am  planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut the new

 with a  Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

 smooth  the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit to drill

 the  rivet holes is important too, don't want any cracks there. A

  metal-drilling bit?

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model  2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  

 

 --

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Thanks for that link Tom, it is very helpful information. A dumb question

though - is "polycarbonate" the same as "lexan"?



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

kitfox555(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif">

 [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Uh, I think someone has mixed up the posts.  I believe it began with a post 

about Lexan, but I might be wrong.  Lexan is soft and can be drilled with 

normal drill bits, but the holes should be about 30 percent larger than the 

fastener to accommodate expansion/contraction or cracking will occur. 

Acrylic is different and needs to be drilled as Lynn posted below.

Deke



---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Windsceen Lexan

 	  Quote: 	
		   is "polycarbonate" the same as "lexan"? 	




Yes, Lexan is Polycarbonate.  There are other brand names out there too.  My polycarbonate windshield material that came from the old Skystar was Rino or something like that.  Its tough and fairly easy to work with.  All the suggestions from others are good advise to follow.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

To add to the confusion ACS lists it in two places, one as "Lexan" and the

other as "Lexan Polycarbonate"

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/lexan.php

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/2024_leadedge.php



The keen eye however will note the same specs *and* the same part numbers on

both pages, so matters not what you call it I guess...



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Wrightsville, PA, eh? Sounds like you can just hop on down there to  

Jeanette and pick up what you need....well, maybe a bit more than  

just a *hop*



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 25, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 Excellent information Lynn, thanks for the "tip" (pun most definitely

 intended). I see that LP Aeroplastics also has foam and tape and other

 things that I will need. And I will go with the 0.93 lexan.



 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

larry huntley

Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

FWIIW, The material in most of our windshields is polycarbonate.

Lexan happens to be one of the brand names,but there are many others..

Acrylic is the other plastic often used in aircraft windshields and windows. 

Plexiglas is a popular brand name,but there are many others.

Polycarbonate can be easily bent, cut,drilled etc. with common tools. 

Acrylic is harder and is more difficult to work. It will crack unless proper 

tools are used in the correct manner.

  Don't get them mixed up. It is very expensive.

As my Dad used to say to explain something like this." All crows are 

blackbirds,but all blackbirds aren't crows.                Larry Huntley



---

_________________
Larry Huntley,Dundee,NY
Kitfox 4-1200 N234EE
EA81,AMAX Redrive Warp 3 blade

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

I probably didn't pay any attention, Deke, when I posted. I just read  

"metal-drilling" and a red flag went up. And a big "amen" to the 30%  

oversize mention.



Just for the record, my Machinery's Handbook calls for an included  

angle of 55-60° for drilling "plastics."



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive





On Aug 25, 2008, at 7:40 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Uh, I think someone has mixed up the posts.  I believe it began  

 with a post about Lexan, but I might be wrong.  Lexan is soft and  

 can be drilled with normal drill bits, but the holes should be  

 about 30 percent larger than the fastener to accommodate expansion/ 

 contraction or cracking will occur. Acrylic is different and needs  

 to be drilled as Lynn posted below.

 Deke



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

A bit more than a hop yup, although I was in Ohiopyle camping just a month

ago so I could have stopped in then if I had known... 



do not archive



Bob Brennan - N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Check with a local commercial window installer C they can probably order the lexan for you and include it on their regular truck shipments.  That should beat the shipping down some C and their price will probably be less than ACS.  A year ago C I got two 4X8 sheets of .060 lexan and it came to $100 after shipping.   Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C Avid flyin  Mn



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen Lexan

 Date: Mon C 25 Aug 2008 20:47:30 -0400

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 A bit more than a hop yup C although I was in Ohiopyle camping just a month

 ago so I could have stopped in then if I had known... 

 

 do not archive

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa

 

 --

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Bob C I think I heated to 120 degrees before drilling. I can't really remember. I used a heat gun C as I said C and a laser thermometer and practiced on a scrap piece first.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

   

 From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen Lexan

Date: Mon C 25 Aug 2008 19:34:06 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Pat C

  

 I was thinking that the previous owner hadn't heated the current windscreen properly C or probably not at all C which is why I am getting stress cracks. In general the recommendation for lexan C that I have seen C is to not try to work with it at all under 70F. I am thinking the warmer the day the better for working with lexan. And warm days in the UK.... well let's just say it's a rarity!

  

  Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly

Sent: 25 August 2008 6:40 pm

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen Lexan

 

Dave C You want a dull bit that won't grab. ACS sells a special  plexi bit C but I didn't use one. You can heat the material with a heat gun also then it is not brittle. I don't remember how hot I got it. I used a laser thermometer to test to get right temp in practice and then heated to that temp before drilling. Worked good for me.

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen Lexan

 Date: Mon C 25 Aug 2008 18:25:07 -0400

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 Thanks Dave C

 

 So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have a

 micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little over 75 C

 so it must be .060(?)

 

 There are some fairly sharp curves on my KF2 C which is where the cracks

 occurred. I am planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut the new

 with a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

 smooth the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit to drill

 the rivet holes is important too C don't want any cracks there. A

 metal-drilling bit?

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 

 --

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Windsceen Lexan

Pat - how about for bending? I would think that would be more  important that it be warm (more flexible?) when bent(?)

  

 I know I'm more flexible when I'm bent... 

  

  

Bob Brennan - N717GB 

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox 

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick  reilly

Sent: 26 August 2008 7:56 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

 

Bob, I think I heated to 120 degrees before drilling. I can't really  remember. I used a heat gun, as I said, and a laser thermometer and practiced on  a scrap piece first.

 

Do not archive

 

Pat Reilly

Mod  3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL

  

From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:34:06 -0400

  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P { 	PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage { 	FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma }   Pat,

  

 I was thinking that the previous owner hadn't heated the current  windscreen properly, or probably not at all, which is why I am getting stress  cracks. In general the recommendation for lexan, that I have seen, is to not try  to work with it at all under 70F. I am thinking the warmer the day the better  for working with lexan. And warm days in the UK.... well let's just say it's a  rarity!

  

 Bob Brennan -  N717GB

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

Wrightsville Pa 

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick  reilly

Sent: 25 August 2008 6:40 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

 

Dave, You want a dull bit that won't grab. ACS sells a special   plexi bit, but I didn't use one. You can heat the material with a heat gun also  then it is not brittle. I don't remember how hot I got it. I used a laser  thermometer to test to get right temp in practice and then heated to that temp  before drilling. Worked good for me.

 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582  Rebuild

Rockford, IL



[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Windsceen  Lexan

 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:25:07 -0400

 

 -->  Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan"  <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 

 Thanks Dave,

  

 So that sounds like a recommendation for .080 or .093? I don't have  a

 micrometer but the current windscreen starts to pulsate at a little  over 75,

 so it must be .060(?)

 

 There are some fairly  sharp curves on my KF2, which is where the cracks

 occurred. I am  planning to use the old pieces as templates and cut the new

 with a  Dremel with a cut-off wheel. With that I should be able to also

 smooth  the edges. I imagine that using the right kind of drill bit to drill

 the  rivet holes is important too, don't want any cracks there. A

  metal-drilling bit?

 

 Bob Brennan - N717GB

 1991 UK Model  2 ELSA Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa  

 

 --

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