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backstagelive(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Accident

Looks like we may have a 601XL accident in Austrailia. Here is the link. I 

received it from a friend of mine that lives there who knew th pilot. I 

requested more information from him and as soon as I get it I will forward 

it to the group. The news media is calling it a wing failure and names the 

pilot and passenger in the video story. Over 20 wittnesses saw it go down 

and they refered to it as a stunt plane in one story, an ultralight in 

another. My friend confirms to me that it was a 601 XL. Looks like it 

happened near a popular beach, with debris on both land and water. My 

condolenses to family and friends. If I get anything else I will let you 

know.



http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/03/07/8571_gold-coast-top-story.html



Joe in Oshkosh

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Accident

Thanks.



Those extra wings ribs are looking better and better all the time.



 	  backstagelive(at)gmail.co wrote: 	
		  Looks like we may have a 601XL accident in Austrailia. Here is the link. I 

received it from a friend of mine that lives there who knew th pilot. I 

requested more information from him and as soon as I get it I will forward 

it to the group. The news media is calling it a wing failure and names the 

pilot and passenger in the video story. Over 20 wittnesses saw it go down 

and they refered to it as a stunt plane in one story, an ultralight in 

another. My friend confirms to me that it was a 601 XL. Looks like it 

happened near a popular beach, with debris on both land and water. My 

condolenses to family and friends. If I get anything else I will let you 

know.



http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/03/07/8571_gold-coast-top-story.html



Joe in Oshkosh

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Accident

Andy,



Let's not jump to any conclusions here. Sounds more like there may have 

been a problem with the canopy, if I had to guess--which we shouldn't. I 

know an eyewitness stated that a wing /may/ have come off, but I doubt 

many eyewitnesses would know a wing from a rudder or any other part in 

that instance. Hopefully they will recover the plane. The wings could, 

very well, still be intact. Sounds like the canopy will not be since 

they found 3 pieces of it scattered on shore. The plane was supposed to 

have gone-in 700 meters from shore.



Kevin Bonds



ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks.



 Thoe extra wings ribs are looking better and better all the time.

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Accident

Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.



 	  Kevin Bonds wrote: 	
		  Andy,



Let's not jump to any conclusions here. Sounds more like there may have 

been a problem with the canopy, if I had to guess--which we shouldn't. I 

know an eyewitness stated that a wing /may/ have come off, but I doubt 

many eyewitnesses would know a wing from a rudder or any other part in 

that instance. Hopefully they will recover the plane. The wings could, 

very well, still be intact. Sounds like the canopy will not be since 

they found 3 pieces of it scattered on shore. The plane was supposed to 

have gone-in 700 meters from shore.



Kevin Bonds



ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks.



 Thoe extra wings ribs are looking better and better all the time.

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Accident

We had an 601 XL down in Barcelona 2 month ago. Aparently, wing fold. 



2008/3/10, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com (iberplanes(at)gmail.com)>:[quote] Si es por un ala, me comienza a preocupar. Voy a investigar y te cuento.



saludos

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

  Date: 10-mar-2008 12:55

Subject: Re: Accident

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)



 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

  

 Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

   

 

 Kevin Bonds wrote:

 > Andy,

 >

 > Let's not jump to any conclusions here. Sounds more like there may have

 > been a problem with the canopy, if I had to guess--which we shouldn't. I

   > know an eyewitness stated that a wing /may/ have come off, but I doubt

 > many eyewitnesses would know a wing from a rudder or any other part in

 > that instance. Hopefully they will recover the plane. The wings could,

   > very well, still be intact. Sounds like the canopy will not be since

 > they found 3 pieces of it scattered on shore. The plane was supposed to

 > have gone-in 700 meters from shore.

 >

 > Kevin Bonds

   >

 > ashontz wrote:

 >

 > >

 > >

 > >  Thanks.

 > >

 > >  Thoe extra wings ribs are looking better and better all the time.

 > >

 > >

 > >

   > >

 > >

 > >

 >

 

 

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

  

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

  

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=168739#168739

 

 

   

[b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: Accident

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 01:25:43PM +0100, Iberplanes IGL wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   > 

 >

 > Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead

 > of the 15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits

 > control surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

 We had an 601 XL down in Barcelona 2 month ago. Aparently, wing fold.

Now I'm curious. How does ths square with the pictures on AMD's site of

load-testing the wings to +6G? I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I

can't figure out what it is. Since I'm buying instead of building, I can't

add extra ribs or the like...

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: Accident

IMHO, it could well have been a bird strike - bits of the canopy spread 

wide.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Accident

If you find a link to that accident in Barcelona please post it. I'm fluent in Spanish so I can translate it, if it is in Catalan I can still get it translated with the help some of my wife's family.

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] We had an 601 XL down in Barcelona 2 month ago. Aparently, wing fold. 

2008/3/10, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com (iberplanes(at)gmail.com)>:[quote] Si es por un ala, me comienza a preocupar. Voy a investigar y te cuento.

saludos

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

  Date: 10-mar-2008 12:55

Subject: Re: Accident

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

 Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

 Kevin Bonds wrote:

 > Andy,

 >

  > Let's not jump to any conclusions here. Sounds more like there may have

 > been a problem with the canopy, if I had to guess--which we shouldn't. I

   > know an eyewitness stated that a wing /may/ have come off, but I doubt

 > many eyewitnesses would know a wing from a rudder or any other part in

 > that instance. Hopefully they will recover the plane. The wings could,

   > very well, still be intact. Sounds like the canopy will not be since

 > they found 3 pieces of it scattered on shore. The plane was supposed to

 > have gone-in 700 meters from shore.

 >

 > Kevin Bonds

   >

 > ashontz wrote:

 >

 > >

 > >

 > >  Thanks.

 > >

 > >  Thoe extra wings ribs are looking better and better all the time.

 > >

 > >

 > >

   > >

 > >

 > >

 >

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 [quote][b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Accident

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  , and some sort of overridable system that limits control surface/stick 

 travel at and above manuevering speed.


	






CAREFUL THERE !!!      think that thru before you limit (even with 

override)control travel.

John

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Accident

I've already discussed this with Dave Downey and he likes my design.



 	  John Bolding wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		   



  , and some sort of overridable system that limits control surface/stick 

 travel at and above manuevering speed.



	






CAREFUL THERE !!!      think that thru before you limit (even with 

override)control travel.

John

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Accident

No matter what the cause was, I personally feel the BRS would be a great investment for "just in case you ever need it".  You can't put a price tag on a system that could potentially save your life.

   

   



     [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Accident

I'm installing one for sure.



[quote="skyridersbn"]No matter what the cause was, I personally feel the BRS would be a great investment for "just in case you ever need it".  You can't put a price tag on a system that could potentially save your life.

   

   



      	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Accident

Hi Guys,



Question:



If you were the pilot falling out of the sky, hurtling to the ground in total fear to die what would you give at that moment in your life to get back on the ground in one piece? If the answer is anything or everything then it sounds like a BRS is cheap insurance and piece of mind!



This is the question that was ask of me in the early 1980's when flying ultralights and the parachute for them first appeared. I have had a chute ever since then.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Accident

Andy, What no BRS chute????????????????

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>



Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 

15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control 

surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

Kevin Bonds wrote:

	
	


 

 

 --

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Accident

The biggest cost of BRS is the loss of baggage carrying ability. That's 30 lbs back at the rear of the CG envelope.



I picked the 601 because it is a pretty good X-C aircraft. If adding a BRS negates the ability of the aircraft to do the mission that I need it to do that is to high a price to pay for what should never be used in the first place.



I've seen nothing to make me believe that any of the wing failure accidents have been caused by anything other than the aircraft being stressed beyond the design specs. And those wing failure accidents are the only failure mode that has shown up in the 601 that the BRS would be the best option. In fact in at least one or two of those accident I seem to remember that the BRS probably wouldn't have helped because the aircraft was at  low altitude when the failure took place.



I have no problem with someone choosing to install a BRS but I personally think that the a lot more lives would be saved if the $3K+ was spent on training instead of the chute.



All aircraft ever built have been a collection of design compromises. 



For those of you that seem to think there is a design issue I have to ask. What the hell are you doing building one or more to the point flying one? If I thought there was a design failure I'd sell mine for scrap.  



 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  Hi Guys,



Question:



If you were the pilot falling out of the sky, hurtling to the ground in total fear to die what would you give at that moment in your life to get back on the ground in one piece? If the answer is anything or everything then it sounds like a BRS is cheap insurance and piece of mind!



This is the question that was ask of me in the early 1980's when flying ultralights and the parachute for them first appeared. I have had a chute ever since then.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Accident

Just my $0.02. In so far as there is a big difference between the 601HD(S)  and the 601XL wing has anyone looked as which type is being reported(?)  as  having wing failure? Is there any report that has confirmed a wing failure on  any 601? Jerry of Ga.  DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 3/10/2008 12:14:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  nyterminat(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Andy,    What no BRS chute????????????????

    	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>



Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 

15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control 

surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

. 	
	
	




It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

  [quote][b]

graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Accident

Has anyone from the group considered a top wing strut for the ch601. (ag 

cat!)



even a light strut would triangate the wing increasing the load bearing by 

multiples.

I could be removed if you were sure you went not going to exceed the design 

specs.

But would instill confidence for those wanting to fly in rough weather.

There may be a small trade off in drag.

I think it would be preferable to a BRS chute.



Graemecns

---

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Accident

You are going to need to find a very strong location to anchor it to the fuselage. The only thing that comes to mind is where the instrument panel is. Altho it probably isn't strong enough to transfer loads from one side to the other. If the 601's upper longerons are like the 801's they will not stand to much of a side load.. 

IMHO 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Graeme" <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Graeme" <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au>



Has anyone from the group considered a top wing strut for the ch601. (ag 

cat!)



even a light strut would triangate the wing increasing the load bearing by 

multiples.

I could be removed if you were sure you went not going to exceed the design 

specs.

But would instill confidence for those wanting to fly in rough weather.

There may be a small trade off in drag.

I think it would be preferable to a BRS chute.



Graemecns

---

backstagelive(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Accident

Got this from my friend in Austrailia. Looks like it was a story in the 

local news paper.



Tony Wilson



11Mar08



A BIRD strike on some part of Garry Sweetnam's Zenith Zodiac aircraft is 

being suggested as a possible cause of the crash which claimed two lives.



While the official investigation into the crash is just beginning, 

Australian Wings Academy chief executive officer Phil Sweeney said he had 

seen the damage a bird could inflict on an aircraft.



"We'll probably never know but I personally suspect it may have been a bird 

strike," he said.



"We had a bird strike on a Cessna on its final coming into the airfield 

about a year or 15 months ago.



"We've got Cessna 172s with a high wing on them and it hit about 3ft or 4ft 

out from the fuselage on the wing and it left a huge dint.



"There were three instructors on board and they were actually doing 

instructor training and it scared them.



"They landed but what really worried them was that if that hit the cockpit 

window, it would have ended up in the cockpit and they could have been 

completely knocked out or certainly so disoriented they wouldn't have been 

able to land the plane.



"If Garry was getting along at 110 knots or 200km/h and a dirty great big 

pelican or sea eagle hit them ... if it hit the wing then it could have torn 

the wing straight off at the speed they were going.



"Or it might have hit the canopy. You just don't know. It's total 

speculation.



"Until they find the remains of the plane and bring it up, you're just not 

going to know."



Mr Sweeney said the one thing he was sure about was that whatever happened 

in the air that fateful Friday, it would not have been pilot or plane error.



"Garry was just too safe," said Mr Sweeney.



Garry Sweetnam, 48 and Andrew Mitchell, 33, were on a short 20-minute flight 

in the home-made kit plane to check it out before an air show, when it 

plummeted into the ocean at Narrow Neck just after 4pm on Friday.



Another Gold Coast pilot who did not want to be named also said a bird 

strike was the most likely scenario.



"Given Garry's safety record, it's what a lot of pilots have been talking 

about," said the pilot.



"It makes the most sense, but obviously we will have to wait until the 

wreckage is recovered."



That may not be until late in the week.



Water Police acting Senior Sergeant Mark Kelly said a Water Police boat 

searched the area yesterday morning but with a 4m swell running it was 

impossible to conduct a proper search.



"It's too rough for divers. We will have a Water Police boat out again this 

morning," he said.



"But the forecast is worse than yesterday's, so we don't think we will be 

able to put divers and the sonar back in the water until later in the week."

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Accident

All confirmed and unconfirmed wing failures have happened with the 601 XL and one 601 UL in the UK. The 601UL wing failure in the UK was determined to be due to over stressing the airframe during a hard pull but all of 601 XL cases are still inconclusive. 



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote:     Just my $0.02. In so far as there is a big difference between the 601HD(S)  and the 601XL wing has anyone looked as which type is being reported(?)  as  having wing failure? Is there any report that has confirmed a wing failure on  any 601? Jerry of Ga.  DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 3/10/2008 12:14:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  nyterminat(at)aol.com writes:

 Andy,    What no BRS chute????????????????

   




Regardless, I'm adding extra ribs, going with the 12 gallon tanks instead of the 

15, no wing-locker, and some sort of overridable system that limits control 

surface/stick travel at and above manuevering speed.

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