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dual brakes vs. single

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sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

I talked with Ken at Van's today about problems routing brake lines for 

my dual brakes (my own fault mostly, for the way I organized things on 

the firewall).  He observed that he thinks dual brakes aren't worth it. 

  It's a few pounds of weight that almost never gives any benefit.  He 

says he's taking the dual brakes out of his plane soon.



Do those of you who have dual brakes ever really use the right side?  I 

thought it would be helpful if I ever took a CFI up with me.  However, 

removing them now would greatly simplify my brake routing problems. 

I've just about decided to tear out the right side.

Thanks for any opions.

--

Tom Sargent, RV-6A.

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Removing my pax-side brakes is on my to-do list, Tom.  Never used 'em once in 10 years flying.  I have parking brake valve in case I ever need to hand prop (or just have pax sit on the left for the time being and hold brakes.)  They add weight, expense (probably too late to recoup that) and they, alone, are the source of the only seepage in the whole system.  Mine should be on ebay within a month 

 

I don't think a CFI would be anxious about no brakes on his side in a nosewheel aircraft.



-Bill Boyd  RV-6A 710 hrs



On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:51 AM, tom sargent <sarg314(at)comcast.net (sarg314(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: tom sargent <sarg314(at)comcast.net (sarg314(at)comcast.net)>

  

 I talked with Ken at Van's today about problems routing brake lines for my dual brakes (my own fault mostly, for the way I organized things on the firewall).  He observed that he thinks dual brakes aren't worth it.  It's a few pounds of weight that almost never gives any benefit.  He says he's taking the dual brakes out of his plane soon.

  

 Do those of you who have dual brakes ever really use the right side?  I thought it would be helpful if I ever took a CFI up with me.  However, removing them now would greatly simplify my brake routing problems. I've just about decided to tear out the right side.

  

 

 Thanks for any opions.

 --

 Tom Sargent, RV-6A.

 

 _=               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 

 

 

 [b]

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Bill Boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't think a CFI would be anxious about no brakes on his side in a

 nosewheel aircraft.


	


I would think a CFI would be much more concerned about RH brakes in a 

nosewheel aircraft than in a tailwheel plane. Brakes can be pretty 

important for steering an -A model but are only needed in a tailwheeler 

to avoid taxiing into the gas pump.  



Sam Buchanan

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

I was assuming the person getting a BFR or transition training would know how to taxi (!) but taking off and landing a tailwheel aircraft looks a bit more risky and complicated than same in a trigear.  I've only done it a half-dozen times with an instructor, and that many more with Mike Segar, so I admit my opinion isn't worth much.  Is it all rudder and no brakes until you get to the pump, in a taildragger?  Shows you what I know...

 

I was taking my own  situation into account: need BFR every 2 years in a nosewheel RV that I have 700 hours in.  CFI not likely to feel anxious about me having the only brakes in the aircraft.  Pit me in a taildragger for a BFR and suddenly his comfort level is very different, right?

 

-Bill



On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net (sbuc(at)hiwaay.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc(at)hiwaay.net (sbuc(at)hiwaay.net)>

 

 Bill Boyd wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   I don't think a CFI would be anxious about no brakes on his side in a

 nosewheel aircraft.

 	
 

 I would think a CFI would be much more concerned about RH brakes in a nosewheel aircraft than in a tailwheel plane. Brakes can be pretty important for steering an -A model but are only needed in a tailwheeler to avoid taxiing into the gas pump.  

  

 Sam Buchanan

 

 

 

 

 [b]

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

 	  Quote: 	
		  I was taking my own  situation into account: need BFR every 2 years 

in a nosewheel RV that I have 700 hours in.  CFI not likely to feel 

anxious about me having the only brakes in the aircraft.  Pit me in 

a taildragger for a BFR and suddenly his comfort level is very 

different, right?


	


I have a taildragger, no right hand brakes.  When I do a Flight 

Review, there is no need for the CFI to ever touch the controls.  The 

CFIs that I fly with are not even taildragger qualified.



Speaking of a Flight Review, if all you have is a single seat 

aircraft such as the RV3, I assume one has to do the Flight Review in 

a different aircraft with at least two seats?  Now if the two seat 

aircraft is an RV4/8, do you have to have any controls for the CFI at all?



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Speaking of which, I need a BFR, and would appreciate recopmmendations for someone local to the LWB area who is comfortable giving one in an RV.  Thanks, Bob.



-Bill B



On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Bob <panamared5(at)brier.net (panamared5(at)brier.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared5(at)brier.net (panamared5(at)brier.net)> 

 

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   I was taking my own  situation into account: need BFR every 2 years in a nosewheel RV that I have 700 hours in.  CFI not likely to feel anxious about me having the only brakes in the aircraft.  Pit me in a taildragger for a BFR and suddenly his comfort level is very different, right?

  	
 



 I have a taildragger, no right hand brakes.  When I do a Flight Review, there is no need for the CFI to ever touch the controls.  The CFIs that I fly with are not even taildragger qualified.

 

 Speaking of a Flight Review, if all you have is a single seat aircraft such as the RV3, I assume one has to do the Flight Review in a different aircraft with at least two seats?  Now if the two seat aircraft is an RV4/8, do you have to have any controls for the CFI at all?

  

 Bob

 RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West" 



 

 

 

 

 

 



[b]

n343fd(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Tom



I am not as experienced as 99% of the people here but I have had occasion to use my right side brakes several times. Twice when the wind was gusting to 30+ knots (I seem to remember it closer to 40 but that seems high. Any way it was out at KIFP). There was just no way to get out of the plane without having the wind pushing it all over the place (granted someone with more flight time might know a way). My wife got on the brakes and controls and presto problem solved ... well sort of the wind was still causing trouble but I got the plane tied down. Then twice on a hill she helped out. The hill I could have used my parking brake but in the wind I really needed someone on and off the brakes several times. Granted my plane is a  not a 6A but I tend to think most CFI's would want access  to the breaking system.



Again I am no expert or authority in any way I have low time in an RV (closing in on 100 hr in my 6). Just letting ya know that I was glad I had my pax brakes on at least 2 occasions. 

 

Mike D

N64GH - RV6

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE - THANK THE AMERICAN SOLDIER FOR YOURS!

---

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

If I'm not mistaken, the FAA changed the rules a few years ago & 'full 

dual controls' are now legally required for instruction, including 

flight reviews. Having said that, none of the CFI's that I know pay any 

attention to the rule, even in TW planes, if they know you & your 

abilities.  If someone lives in an area where all the CFI's are koolaid 

drinking nazi's, it might be worth some research.



Charlie



Bill Boyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Removing my pax-side brakes is on my to-do list, Tom.  Never used 'em 

 once in 10 years flying.  I have parking brake valve in case I ever 

 need to hand prop (or just have pax sit on the left for the time being 

 and hold brakes.)  They add weight, expense (probably too late to 

 recoup that) and they, alone, are the source of the only seepage in 

 the whole system.  Mine should be on ebay within a month 



 I don't think a CFI would be anxious about no brakes on his side in a 

 nosewheel aircraft.



 -Bill Boyd  RV-6A 710 hrs



 On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:51 AM, tom sargent <sarg314(at)comcast.net 

 <mailto:sarg314(at)comcast.net>> wrote:



     

     <mailto:sarg314(at)comcast.net>>



     I talked with Ken at Van's today about problems routing brake

     lines for my dual brakes (my own fault mostly, for the way I

     organized things on the firewall).  He observed that he thinks

     dual brakes aren't worth it.  It's a few pounds of weight that

     almost never gives any benefit.  He says he's taking the dual

     brakes out of his plane soon.



     Do those of you who have dual brakes ever really use the right

     side?  I thought it would be helpful if I ever took a CFI up with

     me.  However, removing them now would greatly simplify my brake

     routing problems. I've just about decided to tear out the right side.

     Thanks for any opions.

     --

     Tom Sargent, RV-6A.

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Seems like a lot of anguish over just a few pounds.

  

 Ron Lee

    [quote][b]

wskimike(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

I don't think you understood about the CFI. If you  plan to get  a certification in the aircraft, the rule states dual  controls. This includes brakes. 

 [quote]   ---

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

YES

Bob wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> I was taking my own  situation into account: need BFR every 2 years 

> in a nosewheel RV that I have 700 hours in.  CFI not likely to feel 

> anxious about me having the only brakes in the aircraft.  Pit me in a 

> taildragger for a BFR and suddenly his comfort level is very 

> different, right?

 I have a taildragger, no right hand brakes.  When I do a Flight 

 Review, there is no need for the CFI to ever touch the controls.  The 

 CFIs that I fly with are not even taildragger qualified.

 Speaking of a Flight Review, if all you have is a single seat aircraft 

 such as the RV3, I assume one has to do the Flight Review in a 

 different aircraft with at least two seats?  Now if the two seat 

 aircraft is an RV4/8, do you have to have any controls for the CFI at 

 all?

 Bob

 RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Sorry, you are simply wrong. The Richmond FSDO tried that line and got 

slapped down by FAA HQ with a memo that specifically says dual controls 

do not mean dual brakes. Heck some planes have no brakes.



wskimike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't think you understood about the CFI. If you plan to get  a 

 certification in the aircraft, the rule states dual controls. This 

 includes brakes.



 * **

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Nope, the rules weren't changed, just clarified with a General Counsel 

memo (IIRC) to straighten out the knuckle draggers at Richmond FSDO. 

Dual brakes are not required for flight checks, check rides, BFRs, etc. 

IF the CFI feels a need for them for a particular student, then a 

different aircraft should be used to satisfy the CFI's concern, but 

there is NOTHING in the regs requiring dual brakes. Many certified 

aircraft, such as Mooneys do not have dual brakes. I've gotten plenty of 

instruction, BFRs and IPCs in Mooneys with only left side brakes, 

regardless of whether I was flying left or right seat. Not to mention 

all the old aircraft that only had tail skids and no brakes. No aircraft 

on skiis or floats have any brakes..makes no difference for flight check 

or instruction.



Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If I'm not mistaken, the FAA changed the rules a few years ago & 'full 

 dual controls' are now legally required for instruction, including 

 flight reviews. Having said that, none of the CFI's that I know pay 

 any attention to the rule, even in TW planes, if they know you & your 

 abilities.  If someone lives in an area where all the CFI's are 

 koolaid drinking nazi's, it might be worth some research.



 Charlie



 Bill Boyd wrote:

> Removing my pax-side brakes is on my to-do list, Tom.  Never used 'em 

> once in 10 years flying.  I have parking brake valve in case I ever 

> need to hand prop (or just have pax sit on the left for the time 

> being and hold brakes.)  They add weight, expense (probably too late 

> to recoup that) and they, alone, are the source of the only seepage 

> in the whole system.  Mine should be on ebay within a month 

>

> I don't think a CFI would be anxious about no brakes on his side in a 

> nosewheel aircraft.

>

> -Bill Boyd  RV-6A 710 hrs

>

> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:51 AM, tom sargent <sarg314(at)comcast.net 

> <mailto:sarg314(at)comcast.net>> wrote:

>

>     

>     <mailto:sarg314(at)comcast.net>>

>

>     I talked with Ken at Van's today about problems routing brake

>     lines for my dual brakes (my own fault mostly, for the way I

>     organized things on the firewall).  He observed that he thinks

>     dual brakes aren't worth it.  It's a few pounds of weight that

>     almost never gives any benefit.  He says he's taking the dual

>     brakes out of his plane soon.

>

>     Do those of you who have dual brakes ever really use the right

>     side?  I thought it would be helpful if I ever took a CFI up with

>     me.  However, removing them now would greatly simplify my brake

>     routing problems. I've just about decided to tear out the right 

> side.

>     Thanks for any opions.

>     --

>     Tom Sargent, RV-6A.

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

 	  Quote: 	
		  Seems like a lot of anguish over just a few pounds.




	




For some people, I agree it is not an issue weight wise one way or 

the other.  I on the other hand looked at every piece of equipment on 

my RV and asked:  1.  How much does it weigh? 2.  Do I really need 

that extra weight?  3.  If so, is there a lighter alternative available.



I usually only fly with 8-10 gals of fuel.  I can tell a big 

difference between 10 gals and 38 gals in the performance of my 

aircraft.  And with a passenger, I can really tell the difference.  I 

like the feel and performance of my aircraft at the lightest possible 

weight.  And 2 pounds here and 2 pounds there really add up.  And it 

is not really 2 pounds it is 12 pounds at 6 Gs!



And the passenger brakes that I don't have, have never leaked, nor do 

they require any maintenance for the entire life of the aircraft.



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this.  I have decided to remove 

the right side brakes and move my brake fluid reservoir over to the left 

side of the firewall, mainly because of the simplification it offers.



1- easier routing of lines (my main issue now)

2- fewer joints to leak,

3- easier to bleed to brakes (since there's less tubing, I'm guessing)



The few pounds of weight saving is a extra bonus, though it's important too.



--

Tom S., RV-6A,

almost ready to rivet the forward top skin.

sarg314(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: dual brakes vs. single

FWIW:  I removed the right side brake cylinders, pedals, nuts, bolts, 

tubing etc., and weighed it all very carefully.  The weight saving was 2 

pounds exactly.

--

Tom S., RV-6A

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