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Challenger long wing weight and ballance

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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Hi guys,

My buddy has built a long wing Challenger, he went for as light as possible so he does not have a fiberglass nose cone and the engine is a 503. I sat in front the other day and even when you push the nose down it popped back up. He says its designed around a about a 200 lb person and the min pilot weight from his W&B is 185. Well I know I'm not a heavy weight at 165 but it seems strange to me that an airplane that needs a pilot in the cabin in order to sit level would have this kind of a design goal. As it is if I want to fly it I'll have to wear a dive belt! I know too that with the engine running the front comes down. But it seems like it would not be very stable in the air like this unless you were 200lbs? 



Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
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Dorothy McCune

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Kevin,

For that type of problem, the helicopters use a movable weight to 

compensate for the sensitive weight and balance.  This would probably

work for the Challenger as well.  A bag of lead shot would do.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



kmccune wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi guys,

 My buddy has built a long wing Challenger, he went for as light as possible so he does not have a fiberglass nose cone and the engine is a 503. I sat in front the other day and even when you push the nose down it popped back up. He says its designed around a about a 200 lb person and the min pilot weight from his W&B is 185. Well I know I'm not a heavy weight at 165 but it seems strange to me that an airplane that needs a pilot in the cabin in order to sit level would have this kind of a design goal. As it is if I want to fly it I'll have to wear a dive belt! I know too that with the engine running the front comes down. But it seems like it would not be very stable in the air like this unless you were 200lbs? 



 Kevin



 --------

 Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Oh man, I'll never live it down!



Thanks for the reply Larry!

Kevin



Edited reply, 

I've been thinking about it and I guess for this type of airplane it makes sense. But I'm glad I'm not building such a sensitive one.



do not archive



Kevin

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Kevin, 

  

Is VERY IMPORTANT  to have the correct weight and balance in any airplane,  Check closely with the manuals (or call the kit factory)  about the envelope.    But any weight and bamance that is  AFT  outside paramenters  is very dangerous    a  potencial  danger of accidental stall and or spin.   Worse in low altitude as when you are ready to land. 

  

Get it check until satisfied  before atempting to fly it. 

  

Saludos 

Gary Gower 

Flying from Chapala, Mexico.



--- On Thu, 7/17/08, kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:

 [quote]From: kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net>

Subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

To: ultralight-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:22 AM



[quote]--> Ultralight-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune(at)somtel.net>  Hi guys, My buddy has built a long wing Challenger, he went for as light as possible so he does not have a fiberglass nose cone and the engine is a 503. I sat in front the other day and even when you push the nose down it popped back up. He says its designed around a about a 200 lb person and the min pilot weight from his W&B is 185. Well I know I'm not a heavy weight at 165 but it seems strange to me that an airplane that needs a pilot in the cabin in order to sit level would have this kind of a design goal. As it is if I want to fly it I'll have to wear a dive belt! I know too that with the engine running the front comes down. But it seems like it would not be very stable in the air like this unless you were 200lbs?   Kevin  -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193323#193323                  [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

when you push the nose down it popped back up>>



    Hi,

this is standard on the Challenger. I ran mine in the UK for several years 

and I always understood that the rule of thumb, not to take the place of a 

proper weight and balance calc., was that if the nose was on the ground with 

a pilot in and the engine running that weas good enough for jazz.

Mine was totally docile, would only mush when the nose was pulled up to a 

stall amd would side slip like crazy.

My only problem was that the drive belt failed twice. It just shed its 

teeth. Each time I put her down with no trouble



Pat

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Yes it is, I have just never experienced one that needs a min pilot  weight to get the nose wheel to touch! It kinda freaked me out!

Kevin



[quote="ggower_99(at)yahoo.com"]Kevin, 

  

Is VERY IMPORTANT  to have the correct weight and balance in any airplane,  Check closely with the manuals (or call the kit factory)  about the envelope.    But any weight and bamance that is  AFT  outside paramenters  is very dangerous    a  potencial  danger of accidental stall and or spin.   Worse in low altitude as when you are ready to land. 

  

Get it check until satisfied  before atempting to fly it. 

  

Saludos 

Gary Gower 

Flying from Chapala, Mexico.



--- On Thu, 7/17/08, kmccune <kmccune> wrote:

 [quote]From: kmccune <kmccune>

Subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

To: ultralight-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:22 AM



[quote]--> Ultralight-List message posted by: "kmccune" <kmccune>  Hi guys, My buddy has built a long wing Challenger, he went for as light as possible so he does not have a fiberglass nose cone and the engine is a 503. I sat in front the other day and even when you push the nose down it popped back up. He says its designed around a about a 200 lb person and the min pilot weight from his W&B is 185. Well I know I'm not a heavy weight at 165 but it seems strange to me that an airplane that needs a pilot in the cabin in order to sit level would have this kind of a design goal. As it is if I want to fly it I'll have to wear a dive belt! I know too that with the engine running the front comes down. But it seems like it would not be very stable in the air like this unless you were 200lbs?   Kevin  -------- Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.     Read this topic online here:  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193323#193323                   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

A member of the USUA club I used to belong to, flew a QS Sprint.  It took: a 20# dive belt around her waist, 10# exercise weights on each ankle and 30#'s of shot in the overstuffed seat cushion she used to get to the recommended pilot weight of 170#.  (I think I remember the numbers... If not exact, they are very close.)

The attached image is of her in flight.... the only obvious thing in this image is how high she is sitting. (Considering that she is about 5 feet nothing tall.)

 	  kmccune wrote: 	
		  Yes it is, I have just never experienced one that needs a min pilot  weight to get the nose wheel to touch! It kinda freaked me out!

(((((SNIP))))

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George Alexander
FS II R503
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kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Well I guess I'll have to let myself go if I want to fly a Challenger!



Kevin

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Well I guess I'll have to let myself go if I want to fly a Challenger!>>



Hi Kevin,

thats a pleasant way to go.

Gliders in Clubs are always running into this problem.  C of G ranges seem 

to be a bit more proscribed than with power and  with different club 

members, particulaly the lightweight women, constantly using the gliders it 

can be a problem. The problem is worse with the training gliders are members 

usually only get one or two flights before the next member on the list 

wants to fly.

My old club solved it by each of the lightweights having their own leadlined 

cushion to sit on to bring the  C of G into line.



I have a lump of lead in the Kolb and  I had some rolled round  a forward 

crossmember and fixed with jubilee clips  in the Challenger. No problem



Pat

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

Thanks for all the replies guys, my reason for posting was that I was concerned that something was not right, but apparently everything if normal.

Kevin

Ratman

Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  if the nose was on the ground with 

a pilot in and the engine running that weas good enough for jazz.



Pat 	




Just to clear this up a bit, if the nose gear remains on the ground WITHOUT the engine running means that the CG is not aft. It could very well be too far forward in this condition but a proper weight and balance computation would need to be done to determine this. A W&B worksheet can be had on the flychallenger yahoo egroup.



It may appear that I am being picky about this but, if you assume the CG is correct with the engine running, and then loose power with aft CG in flight the likelyhood of stall recovery becomes an issue.

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

I do not think your being picky at all. You seem to mirror my initial concern. He has since flown with a Challenger pilot, who also happens to fly 747s. The "Heavy" pilot feels all is well.  So I guess I'll start eating.

Kevin

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Challenger long wing weight and ballance

It may appear that I am being picky about this but, if you assume the CG is 

correct with the engine running, and then loose power with aft CG in flight 

the likelyhood of stall recovery becomes an issue.>>



Hi,

I wouldn`t disagree strongly with that but with or without the engine 

running if the front wheel is on the ground with the pilot in place thats 

pretty close. If you have trouble getting the nose down in either condition 

stick some weight in the nose. I added some sheet lead wrapped around the 

transvers spacer carrying the pedals (I thinK its been a long time) just 

below the point of the nose, I had the old chisel nose model,. Just wrapped 

several leaves on held with some jubilee clips.



I  lost engine power twice, both times through the teeth of the main prop 

drive belt stripping, so the prop stopped producing thrust even though the 

engine was runningand had no problems landing.



Best course is do a proper C of G calc. The one in the building manual works 

fine.



Cheers



Pat

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