 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
|
 Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
 |
|
Does anyone know what kind of MAGS the M14 PF has and how do you connect the shower of sparks relay to them. Does the left mag have retard points?
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
_________________
Milt |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
Most M14PF engines have M9-35 centrifugal advance magnetos. These mags are
timed after TDC depending on the number stamped in the boss of the magneto
under the mag cover. It typically is in the 5 degrees ATDC range. None of
the Russian mags have "retard points" as in a second set of points. The
non-centrifugal advance mags on the M14P (M9-F) have two "fingers" on the
rotor. One finger is connected to the lead running to the Russian "shower
of sparks". That finger fires a few degrees after TDC (Power stroke) when
the engine rotation starts. The starting coil is attached to the left
magneto.
Dennis
---
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rkent(at)wlacrussianeng.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
After working for Richard Goode I've seen some 30 or 40 PF engines and all
of these had the M-9F magneto. All of those are from Russia but even the PF
engine purchased from Aeromotors only had the M-9F. I don't think I've even
seen an M9-35 magneto.
Regards
Rob Kent
Stores Manager
WLAC - Russian Engineering
www.wlacrussianeng.co.uk
Tel: +44 1628 829 165
Fax: +44 1628 828 961
---
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
That's interesting Rob. I've seen several Yak 52TW's that have PF engines
and they all had M9-35 mags.
Dennis
---
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rkent(at)wlacrussianeng.c
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
I have only seen the one Aeromotors 400hp engine, if I recall correctly it
was an zero timed P engine which was convert to 400hp. I suspect the TW's
are fitted with new engines and as such, new magneto's. I guess they can get
sufficient quantities of new M9-35's easier or cheaper than new M-9F's.
Regards
Rob Kent
Stores Manager
WLAC - Russian Engineering
www.wlacrussianeng.co.uk
Tel: +44 1628 829 165
Fax: +44 1628 828 961
---
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:49 am Post subject: Re: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
Thanks for the input. I purchased my engine from GEOSOCO and recieved a PM with an explanation for all the mags from George COY.
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
_________________
Milt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
george(at)gesoco.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
For everyone's info:
Date: 23 November 2001
Russian Magnetos, Ignition Systems and Timing Them
By George Coy
I have been asked many times to explain the ignition systems on the M-14P
engines and their cousins the M14B, the M-14V26, the AI-14RA, the M462 and
the Ash62IR. The following is a discussion of the ignition systems and how
to properly time them.
Definitions
The M-14P (the data plate will show the Russian character "pie" which is the
Russian letter P also known as the Vedeneyev, Voronesh or Bacanoff engine is
the basic 360 hp. (or 400 hp.) 9 cylinder radial used on most Russian piston
aircraft. That includes the Yaks (18T, 52, 54 & 55) and Sukhois (Su26, 29
&31).
The AI-14RA is the engine that comes on the Wilga and several other eastern
aircraft. It is closely related to the engines on the Chinese Namchung
aircraft.
The M462 is a Czechoslovakian variant of the AI-14RA that produces 315 Hp
and is used on many Eastern agricultural aircraft.
The M-14V26 is a variant of the standard 360 Hp M-14P that has a right angle
drive on the nose case and a pair of these engines are used to drive the
rotor gearbox on the Kamov 26 helicopter.
The M14B is a 360 Hp. engine with a splined shaft for the propeller. It was
developed for the AN14 aircraft a light twin similar to the Aerocommanders.
The Ash 62IR is the 1000 hp engine used on the An-2 aircraft. It is also a 9
cylinder radial that has a magneto that looks very similar to the magnetos
on the smaller engines. The Ash 62IR magneto does not interchange with them,
as it has a different basic internal gear ratio and has a different rotor
cap.
The three magnetos are the M9? (Russian Character Phi western letter F), the
M9-35M and the M9-BSM (Big Soviet Magneto?). The M9-BSM is used only on the
Ash62IR engine and will not work on the smaller engines. We will limit our
discussions to the M9 F (?) and the M9-35M
Some Radial Basics
Many people do not understand the basics of the radial engine and why it has
an odd number of cylinders. The odd number of cylinders is necessary because
it is a four-cycle engine. Think about a four-cycle engine and the four
cycles. The piston must come to the top of the cylinder two times for each
cycle. Once at the top of the exhaust stroke (beginning of the intake
stroke), and once at the top of the compression stroke (beginning of the
power stroke). Now imagine the #1 piston at the top of the compression and
ready to fire for the power stroke. As the single throw crankshaft rotates,
the #2 piston will need to be coming up to the top of the exhaust stroke and
ready to start the intake stroke. Continue this around the engine. Thus we
fire on 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and intake on 2, 4, 6and 8. Soon you will come back to
the number 1 again. If we had an even number of cylinders, we would never
get to fire half of the cylinders and the other half would never get to do
the intake/exhaust stroke. Thus an odd number of cylinders are necessary so
we can skip around the engine firing all cylinders. The firing order becomes
1,3,5,7,9,2,4,6 and 8.
The M-9 Magneto
There are basic two versions of the M9 magnetos used on these engines. They
both will work fine on any of the AI-14RA, M462 or M-14P series engines.
They differ only in the system used to start the engine. The M9-35M has a
centrifugal advance system that is used to retard the spark at engine
starting speeds, and the M9 F (?) uses a rotor with two fingers and a cap
with a separate lead for the second rotor finger. They both use what is
commonly referred to a “shower of sparks”, but they are in reality very
different in how they work.
The M9 F (?) needs a separate high voltage coil that continuously produces a
high voltage current. (similar to the old model T spark coils). The M9-35M
has an interrupter in the “P” lead circuit during the starting that turns on
and off many times a second. This produces sparks similar to the normal
points opening by alternately grounding and opening the “P” lead several
hundred times a second. This is similar to the now popular Slick Start
system and in fact the Slick Start vibrator box is an excellent way to
utilize the M9-35M magnetos. It is considerable more reliable that the Czech
or Russian vibrator boxes that are used on eastern aircraft.
These differences also require different starting techniques. The M9 F (?)
system requires that the magneto switch be in the OFF position until the
engine is firing and then switched to the on or both position. This is to
avoid the magnetos firing at the full advance angle and the engine starting
backwards. The M9-35M system requires the magneto switch to be on during
starting.
The M9 F (?) system starter button must also engage the high voltage coil
system. This produces a spark voltage that is led from the coil to the left
magneto. There is a separate lead hole in the magneto cap that allows this
wire to conduct the current to the cap. It then jumps a small gap to a
copper ring on the rotor. The rotor has two fingers. The leading finger is
about 25 o ahead of the trailing finger in the direction of rotation. The
starting voltage is lead to the trailing finger and then as the engine
rotates to the proper lead to the spark plug for the appropriate cylinder.
As this finger is about 25 o behind the main finger, the engine fires at
just past top dead center.
The M9-35M system must be started with the magneto switch in the both
position. The starter button also engages the vibrator box which does the
high speed switching to produce continuous sparks while the points are open.
Timing the M9 Magnetos
Now how to time the two systems. First remember that we are dealing with a
geared engine. This means that the engine timing in degrees before top dead
center on the crankshaft will not be the same as the number of degrees on
the propeller flange. As we can only measure the advance angle at the prop
flange, we must either know the gear ratio or as luck would have it, the
engine manufacturers have already made the calculations and give us the
advance angle in terms of prop flange angle. Thus the M14P manual calls for
the points to open 14.5 o to 16 o before top dead center. This is in terms
of propeller flange degrees. It is really about 24 o of crankshaft rotation
before top dead center.
The tools I use are the normal dual magneto timing box available from most
aircraft tool houses, and a model E25 timing indicator. This indicator is a
large aluminum cup with a weighted pointer and a degree scale that can be
attached to the propeller hub. These are available again from most aircraft
tool houses. It is used to determine TDC and the timing point (where the
points just open as the engine rotates in the normal direction). I prefer
these as over the years I have found them to be the most accurate way to set
the timing angle. The engine tool kits come with a timing indicator that
screws into the spark plug hole on the #4 cylinder. (No.4 is the master rod
and presumably less chance for error in timing). These indicators can be
used to determine the TDC point and the timing point.
They accomplish this by measuring the piston travel in the cylinder. I have
also on occasion used a pointed instrument (read screw driver) inserted in
the spark plug hole of #4 cylinder to determine the TDC point. I then taped
a bent piece of safety wire to the engine cowling so that it lined up with
the zero mark on the propeller flange, then using that bent wire as a guide
read the timing angle from the small scale stamped on the flange of
propeller shaft.
The idea is to get the points to just open at the timing point. As stated
above, for the M-14P engine this is 14.5 o to 16 o of propeller flange
rotation (about 24 o of crankshaft rotation) before top dead center. (23 o
+ 2 o BTC on the AI-14RA and M462 of crankshaft rotation). The eastern
engine manuals call for determining the point opening position by inserting
a very thin feeler gage between the points and rotating the engine in the
normal direction until the feeler gage falls out. Most of us prefer to use
the electronic dual magneto timing indicator. It will be necessary to make a
little adapter to allow the timing indicator leads to attach to contact in
the hole where the P lead screws in. I use some old lead ends from a U.S.
ignition harness. It is sometimes very difficult to get to the P lead
contact when the engine is mounted in the aircraft. I have seen some people
partially disassemble the mag switch and attach to that end of the P lead
instead of going in the P lead hole in the magneto. Either way works as long
as the electronic timing indicator can determine when the points open.
I usually back the propeller 30 to 40 degrees before the timing point then
slowly advance to the timing point to remove any gear backlash. I then
loosen the magneto and rotate it until the points just open. I then lock the
magneto down and back the propeller up again and come forward until the
timing indicator shows the points opening. Then confirm this is the proper
place. I usually do this for one magneto and then time the second magneto to
the first.
Before starting this timing process, I have inspected the magneto and have
either confirmed the point cap is correct, or have reset the gap to the
proper specifications. These are set to .010 to .014 in (.25mm to .35mm).
The points are platinum. Make sure that they are clean with no hint of oil
on them. Wipe them with a clean lint free rag. Do not use any solvents that
may leave a film behind.
Now as you may notice, the range of adjustment of the magneto for timing is
rather small. You can only rotate the magneto about 10 deg. If it becomes
necessary to rotate it further to get the point opening in the right place,
you will have to remove the magneto from the engine and adjust the coupling
between the magneto and the engine drive gear. This is not usually a fun
process with an engine mounted to an aircraft. You should consult your
engine service manual for the details on how to do this. I must say that on
occasion when I have rotated the magneto as far as I can and can’t quite
make the points open, I have fudged the point gap a little in order to get
the engine to time properly without removing the magneto and fooling with
the coupling.
The M9-35M magneto has a different procedure to determine the timing point.
Remember that these magnetos have a built in centrifugal advance mechanism
and thus the static timing point is not the same place as the running timing
point. The M9-35M magnetos have a number stamped on the face that the metal
cover bolts to. When you remove the cover and the cap to do the inspection
and check the point gap, note this number as it may not be the same from
magneto to magneto. The timing point is determined by subtracting this
advance angle stamped in the magneto divided by the magneto transmission
drive ratio from the normal (running) crankshaft angle. Thus if the magneto
has the number 35 o stamped on it, then the proper static timing point for
the M14P points to open is 24 o - (35 o / 1.125) = minus 7 o. These are
seven degrees past top dead center of crankshaft angle. You then multiply
this by the propeller gearbox ratio (.787 for the AI-14RA & M462 or .658 for
the M-14P). Thus the proper place for the points to open on an AI-14RA with
a M9-35M magneto marked 35o is between 5.5 o ± .5 o after TDC and 4.5 o ± .5
o after TDC for M-14P. Your engine service manual usually has a small table
with these values already calculated for you. Be careful not to time one
magneto to the other unless they both have the same advance angle stamped on
them.
IGNITION PROBLEMS
Over the years of operating and maintaining these engines, we have found
the magnetos to be relatively trouble free. The main problems being arc
tracking in the rotor cap, broken or worn points, broken or worn center
carbon button, broken or badly worn rotor or poor timing. The main problems
with these ignition systems are usually with the spark plugs or the leads
from the spark magnetos to the spark plug leads. The original engines used a
black rubber insulation on the ignition leads. This rubber tends to break
down with time. (remember under their system they had a 5-year calendar
overhaul period on these engines. All rubber goods were replaced at 5-year
intervals). The original Russian spark plugs are sometimes a problem. If you
ever drop one on the floor immediately throw it away as it probably has
internal damage to the porcelain insulator that you will only detect when
the center of the spark plug is pushed out of the barrel during flight. This
causes a nice torch to squirt out of the spark plug barrel each time the
cylinder fires. It does wonders for the rest of the engine accessories.
I have seen the lead breakdown problems happen only at certain rpm and
power settings, while not occurring at other settings. Lead problems are
further confounded by sometimes not being detectable with a high-tension
lead checker. If you suspect lead problems the install some new 5MM silicone
wire available here in the U.S.
Hard starting or no start problems if not fuel related are probably the
shower of sparks system. It is easy to check. Turn the air system off and
run out any residual air using the air start system or other aircraft air
equipment. Remove a spark plug from each cylinder (so the engine does not
accidentally start). Position the propeller so that the No. 4 piston is just
past TDC on the power stroke position. Install a spark plug in the #4 lead
end and rest it against some metal part of the engine. Depress the starter
switch and look for sparks at the plug. No sparks means trouble with the
shower of sparks system.
Another useful technique to determine which plug or lead is bad is to put a
dab of grease on each exhaust pipe near where it comes out of the cylinder.
Start the engine and immediately go to the “bad” mag and run for about 30
seconds. The Exhaust pipe that still has the grease intact is the one that
is not firing. Now move the plug to from the front position to the rear
position. Still have a problem then it is probably a lead. If the problem
went to the other magneto then it is probably a bad plug. The left magneto
(as seen from the cockpit) fires the front spark plugs and is usually marked
“1” on the magneto switch. You should double check this with an ohm meter as
I have seen them “messed” with before.
Good luck and happy flying.
George Coy
George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George(at)gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)
--
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: M14 PF MAGS |
|
|
You are correct Rob.
Dennis
---
| | - The Matronics M14PEngines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?M14PEngines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
