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Leaking VDO fuel sender seals
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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

I had a problem with the VDO Neoprene Fuel Sender Seals on my 601XL.
I originally sealed them with a thin coat of Sealube and I had no problems
for the first
1/1/2 years using 100LL exclusively. Then I placed 92 octane auto fuel that
contained ethanol of 10% into my
tanks. The station assured me there was no ethanol in their fuel. I should
have tested it prior to pouring it into the tanks. I tested it after it was
in the tanks. I thought that I could burn this one
tank off as long as I remained below 3000 Alt I should not have any real
problems.
It was in my tanks for 2 weeks before my fuel filler caps were becoming very
difficult
to remove, the fuel drain valves began to leak, and the VDO Fuel Senders
began to leak.
I drained the tanks and tried to reseal the tank senders without any luck so
I pulled them from
the normal access holes which turned out to be much easier than I expected.
I have attached a picture of the total destruction of the gasket material.
These are the original seals
that come with the VDO Fuel Senders.
I found new VDO seals available from http://www.Eguages.com for about $5
each.
Whether it was the ethanol or some other additive maybe this report will
save time, money, or increase safety.

Additional pictures are on line (at)
http://picasaweb.google.com/Papawobo/trouble
Gary Ray
davgray(at)sbcglobal.net


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zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Do you have the part# for the seals? I tried finding the seals but not sure which ones would fit.


---


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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

John

I misspelled the egauges addresses in the original post

Here is a better description and the corrected source address:

Part No: 226-053 Notes: Neoprene, 2 1/8" bolt circle (54mm). By VDO.

Actual page address of sender and gasket
http://www.egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=10_180ohms


Gary Ray, 601XL, WW Corvair 2700 cc
davgray(at)sbcglobal.net (davgray(at)sbcglobal.net)

[quote] ---


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Ron Lendon



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Clinton Twp., MI

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Gary Ray,

I got different units from Zenith

226-002 FUEL TANK SENDER

I think they come from a Volkswagen. Now I wonder if those seals have the same problem as you just experienced. They are in the tanks and sealed with MC-236-b1/2 Tank Sealant from Vans Aircraft.

After we flew I thought about testing because you can't find any mogas around here without ethanol. At least that is what one of the fuel truck drivers told me.

If anyone knows if these parts are good for use with mogas, please chime in.


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

I'm going to have to ask around at my local EAA. There was a guy in the group that came up with a relatively simple way of getting the ethanol out of mo-gas using a 55 gallon drum. I forget how he did it but basically the ethanol collected at the bottom of the tank or something and he'd pump gas from the top. He's a Chemical Engineer so he seemed to know what he was doing.

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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

ashontz wrote:
I'm going to have to ask around at my local EAA. There was a guy in the group that came up with a relatively simple way of getting the ethanol out of mo-gas using a 55 gallon drum. I forget how he did it but basically the ethanol collected at the bottom of the tank or something and he'd pump gas from the top. He's a Chemical Engineer so he seemed to know what he was doing.


He may be a chemical engineer and may be doing a real good job of extracting the ethanol but does he know what the octane of the fuel that he is left with is? Seems like it would be a real pain to test for octane every time you buy and process gas.


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

From what I remember he was testing the octane too because he was using this process so he could put the fuel in his auto-fuel STD'd Beech Bonanza.

Gig Giacona wrote:
ashontz wrote:
I'm going to have to ask around at my local EAA. There was a guy in the group that came up with a relatively simple way of getting the ethanol out of mo-gas using a 55 gallon drum. I forget how he did it but basically the ethanol collected at the bottom of the tank or something and he'd pump gas from the top. He's a Chemical Engineer so he seemed to know what he was doing.


He may be a chemical engineer and may be doing a real good job of extracting the ethanol but does he know what the octane of the fuel that he is left with is? Seems like it would be a real pain to test for octane every time you buy and process gas.


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Not having read the particular STC for his Bo I still can't imagine how that would possible be legal with a certified aircraft.

If his Bo has a high compression engine, which I think most Bo's do, how would he possibly get the octane up to the 91 that is required by the STC?
ashontz wrote:
From what I remember he was testing the octane too because he was using this process so he could put the fuel in his auto-fuel STD'd Beech Bonanza.


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

I don't know. All I know is, that's what he's using the processed fuel for.

Gig Giacona wrote:
Not having read the particular STC for his Bo I still can't imagine how that would possible be legal with a certified aircraft.

If his Bo has a high compression engine, which I think most Bo's do, how would he possibly get the octane up to the 91 that is required by the STC?
ashontz wrote:
From what I remember he was testing the octane too because he was using this process so he could put the fuel in his auto-fuel STD'd Beech Bonanza.


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wjones(at)brazoriainet.co
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

In one of the classes for my IA renewal a couple years ago the FAA
instructor said that no auto fuel made since 1990 met the requirements of
the STCs for certified aircraft use .I can only believe that he knew what he
was talking about don't know for sure .You may want to check this out with
your local FAA .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
---


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Maybe so and they just never revoked his STC. That only applies to certified planes obviously, correct. No reason we can't use mo-gas in our homebuilts, right? Seems either way, ethanol is not desireable in mo-gas for use in a plane, even if it is a homebuilt. I'll have to find out exavtly what this guy is doing.

wjones(at)brazoriainet.co wrote:
In one of the classes for my IA renewal a couple years ago the FAA
instructor said that no auto fuel made since 1990 met the requirements of
the STCs for certified aircraft use .I can only believe that he knew what he
was talking about don't know for sure .You may want to check this out with
your local FAA .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
---


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Actually, what I think this guy was doing was outright forcing phase separation of the ethanol and the gasoline, by adding water to the E10 in large enough quantities to force the ethanol to get saturated to the point of outright dropping out of solution, thereby winding up with a tankful of gasoline on top, and water and ethanol on the bottom, and then syphoning off the good gas at the top of the 55 gallon drum, or from some point above the phase separation level. Apparently if you do this with good 93 octane gas the octane rating isn't effected either. Apparently the phase separation is more visible if the water had a particular color to it to begin with. Probably works well too. No different than draining the gascolator of water. Once the water is out the gasoline it's fine, you're just removing the dregs, and in this case the dregs are the water as well as the saturated ethanol and what you're left with is ethanol free gas.

http://www.c-bstatesman.com/news/2008/0904/Front_Page/001.html

http://wecleantanks.com/news/003-phase_separation_and_water_in_ethanol.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

http://www.sunworld.net.au/startron/Wc35c468eb2769.htm


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PatrickW



Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

FWIW, I remember that my senders were actually Volkswagen parts.

So a VW is a car, and cars usually run on auto gas (I only say "usually" because I own a VW and it runs on diesel).

Mine are already sealed in my wings, under a generous layer of pro-seal (the black goo of death, as somebody called it).

I heard (at the builders dinner at Oshkosh) that there was a problem with the seals under the gas caps of the fuel tanks.

Might ought to replace those with something made of a different material. Not sure what to do - if anything - about the sender seals. Car parts should be able to handle car gas, right....?

- Pat


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

http://www.fuel-testers.com/instructions_alcohol_fuel_test_kit.html

Check the test kit. The process for ethanol removal is the same as the test kit. Apparently 10cc of water is enough to dissolve all of the ethanol out of 20cc of E10. I'm sure this is the method the guy at our local chapter was using to remove ethanol from gas. Makes sense to me.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/MPG_gas_efficiency_E10_ethanol.html

And you're not really costing yourself any money either by getting rid of that garbage ethanol, the ethanol just robs you of power and fuel efficiency by a considerable amount.


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

In Texas that is probably true because there is no state requirement that fuel meet the ASTM D-4814 specs. There are several states that do have that requirement.

http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/LeadD-4814.html#anchor749413

The Peterson aviation site has all the info on Auto Fuel STCs and you could ever ask for.
wjones(at)brazoriainet.co wrote:
In one of the classes for my IA renewal a couple years ago the FAA
instructor said that no auto fuel made since 1990 met the requirements of
the STCs for certified aircraft use .I can only believe that he knew what he
was talking about don't know for sure .You may want to check this out with
your local FAA .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
---


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

So to take the ethanol out of 24 gallons of gas you need 12 gallons of water. That's not messy at all. And while you are correct that ethanol laced gas has less power and efficiency it does increase octane and when you take it out of gas the fuels octane is at best questionable.

Not to worry though I'm sure we will read all about it in an in-depth accident investigation at some point.

ashontz wrote:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/instructions_alcohol_fuel_test_kit.html

Check the test kit. The process for ethanol removal is the same as the test kit. Apparently 10cc of water is enough to dissolve all of the ethanol out of 20cc of E10. I'm sure this is the method the guy at our local chapter was using to remove ethanol from gas. Makes sense to me.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/MPG_gas_efficiency_E10_ethanol.html

And you're not really costing yourself any money either by getting rid of that garbage ethanol, the ethanol just robs you of power and fuel efficiency by a considerable amount.


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ashontz



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

What I gather though is, being that the PIC is federally licensed, and the Fed doesn't require oxygenates in fuel, and the PIC is responsible for the safety of his flight, the Fed rule should supercede a state mandate on an oxygenate provided it meets octane requirements which is 91 octane or higher. Sounds like a 93 mo-gas with the ethanol removed for a STC'd plane meets that requirement. Plus, it's considerably cheaper. If anyone ever questioned it you could just say that "during pre-flight I must have accidentally drained all the ethanol out of the fuel, because man, I was standing there for an a hour trying to get a clean sample due to all that garbage and condensate in the fuel." LOL

Gig Giacona wrote:
In Texas that is probably true because there is no state requirement that fuel meet the ASTM D-4814 specs. There are several states that do have that requirement.

http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/LeadD-4814.html#anchor749413

The Peterson aviation site has all the info on Auto Fuel STCs and you could ever ask for.
wjones(at)brazoriainet.co wrote:
In one of the classes for my IA renewal a couple years ago the FAA
instructor said that no auto fuel made since 1990 met the requirements of
the STCs for certified aircraft use .I can only believe that he knew what he
was talking about don't know for sure .You may want to check this out with
your local FAA .
Wade Jones South Texas
601XL Franklin 0-235
---


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

I think I'll just play it safe and run 100LL. That is after all what the guy who built my engine suggested.

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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Gig, have you ever done a pre-flight and removed water from the bottom of a tank drain in the little test cup? If so, then you've done this exact process already hundreds of times except you didn't add the water. That gas that's on top of the water is perfectly fine, that's why you feel safe going flying AFTER you've removed the water from the bottom of the tanks and from the gascolator. The ethanol is a water sponge. It sponges up all the water you added and then the sponge falls to the bottom of the tank for easy removal, the excess water also falls to the bottom of the tank, for easy removal as well, just like before your pre-flight.

Gig Giacona wrote:
So to take the ethanol out of 24 gallons of gas you need 12 gallons of water. That's not messy at all. And while you are correct that ethanol laced gas has less power and efficiency it does increase octane and when you take it out of gas the fuels octane is at best questionable.

Not to worry though I'm sure we will read all about it in an in-depth accident investigation at some point.

ashontz wrote:
http://www.fuel-testers.com/instructions_alcohol_fuel_test_kit.html

Check the test kit. The process for ethanol removal is the same as the test kit. Apparently 10cc of water is enough to dissolve all of the ethanol out of 20cc of E10. I'm sure this is the method the guy at our local chapter was using to remove ethanol from gas. Makes sense to me.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/MPG_gas_efficiency_E10_ethanol.html

And you're not really costing yourself any money either by getting rid of that garbage ethanol, the ethanol just robs you of power and fuel efficiency by a considerable amount.


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Leaking VDO fuel sender seals Reply with quote

Andy, I know we have had our differences on this list. But comparing draining water out of the tanks to adding water too remove ethanol is without a doubt the silliest thing I have ever seen you post.

When I drain the sumps I'm not reducing the octane of the fuel. Also, if it ever takes me more than 2 or 3 testers full of fuel to get all the water out of a tank I'm having all the fuel drained and start from scratch. I've had to do that twice since I started flying and I was there when my Grandfather had them drain all the fuel out of a LearJet because of it.


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