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keystone(at)gci.net
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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Jeff
Can I get pics of how you beefed up your seat belt attach points?
When Jim F wrecked his 801 the rivets pulled out from the center attach
point. He was in the plane by himself when he crashed. I hate to think
what would have happened if there had been 2 people in the front seat.
I suspect ZAC assumed the rivets would be in shear but they failed in
tension.
I installed another AL plate under the tunnel top and used A-6 rivets on my
center attach point after what happened to Jim.
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
Valdez, AK
15 hrs on Full Lotus floats
Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear, if
indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
longerons. I
also added structure to the center console.
Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not sure
what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I sure don't
want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
Jeff
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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Bill
I'm going to chip in here, even though I'm the 601 side. IMHO, this is a
very important topic. I have a good friend who was a NM Army National Guard
helicopter pilot for many years. He told me that, on several occasions, he
participated in recovering the bodies of downed pilots who, in his opinion,
would have survived their crash if they hadn't smashed their face into the
panel. He's a big believer in robust seat belts/harnesses.
In my 601XL, I'm planning on using the shoulder harness that Van's sells
for their RV's (for a very reasonable price). Klaus Truemper installed
similar 4-point belt-harnesses in his 601HDS. I asked him about the
attachment and here are my notes from our conversation:
"On each side he ran a reinforcement of ~0.060 6061-T6 from the longeron at
the rear of the baggage compartment (I assume this was the normal
attachment point for Zenith shoulder belts) to just aft of the seat backs.
This sheet was placed beneath the baggage compartment floor. Then he
attached the shoulder harness brackets with a bolt through the baggage
compartment floor and the 0.060 reinforcement. The reinforcement was shaped
like a Y going back to each longeron and was attached to
longeron/fuselage/baggage floor joint with 5 or 6 solid rivets."
I believe that the reinforcement was riveted to the baggage compartment
floor also.
Terry
At 07:48 AM 9/12/2008 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: | Jeff
Can I get pics of how you beefed up your seat belt attach points?
When Jim F wrecked his 801 the rivets pulled out from the center attach
point. He was in the plane by himself when he crashed. I hate to think
what would have happened if there had been 2 people in the front seat.
I suspect ZAC assumed the rivets would be in shear but they failed in
tension.
I installed another AL plate under the tunnel top and used A-6 rivets on my
center attach point after what happened to Jim.
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
Valdez, AK
15 hrs on Full Lotus floats
Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
Something to think about, because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear, if
indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
longerons. I
also added structure to the center console.
Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable, so I'm not sure
what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway, but I sure don't
want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
Jeff
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Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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n85ae
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: 801 seat belts |
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I don't have pics, but I can describe what I did.
The shoulder harness attach points I kept the originals, however I riveted
them with Solid rivets. I made the assumption that the lap attach points
would end up with the major load in a crash so I concentrated on them.
REAR SEAT:
The lapbelt attach points I replace with exact duplicates made from 4130
steel. On the rear seat belts I bolted them to the fues logerons with
AN3 bolts (two bolts each side). The center attach point on the back side
I made some 4130 angles which rivet to the sides of the tunnel that carries
the elevator bellcrank, the center stock attach point then is bolted through
the seat to the angles. So in effect you have the center attach riveted
to the seat per Zenith plans, and then further bolted with two AN3 bolts
to the 4130 angles which have as I recall 5 x 5/32 solid rivets conecting
to the bellcrank tunnel sides.
FRONT SEAT:
The front seat center attach is 4130, and on the inside of the tunnel
I used .063 6061 and made an aluminum backing plate with a 90 degree
L at the front. The L at the front rivets through the 8F11-11 right above
where the controls pass through. I replaced all the rivets with 5/32 solids
The outboard seat attach points are 4130, also with .063 backing plates,
the backing plates are also riveted through where the 8F11-11 attaches to
the cabin sides.
Could probably do more, but I guess at this point if what I added fails then
likely it's not survivable anyways.
Regards,
Jeff
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n801za(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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Jeff C
I had replaced the outboard seatbelt anchors too C the ones on the seat back were in the way and just didn't seem adequate. I added anchors along the inside of the cabin wall behind the door and tied them in to the gear/strut fitment with a 4130 strap. These showed no sign of failure in the crash C but as Bill said C the center anchor peeled completely off the center console. Somehow C the last rivet must have failed just as my body stopped pulling on it C because I did not impact anything. The plane came to rest nearly inverted C which may have contributed to the "peeling" force on the center anchor C however I can tell you that crashing inverted is a clear possibility. I have photos of the failed anchor. I did send these to ZAC but I don't think they ever did anything about it.
Jim Frisby
| Quote: | Date: Fri C 12 Sep 2008 07:48:42 -0800
From: keystone(at)gci.net
Subject: 801 seat belts
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
CC: n85ae(at)yahoo.com; n801za(at)hotmail.com
Jeff
Can I get pics of how you beefed up your seat belt attach points?
When Jim F wrecked his 801 the rivets pulled out from the center attach
point. He was in the plane by himself when he crashed. I hate to think
what would have happened if there had been 2 people in the front seat.
I suspect ZAC assumed the rivets would be in shear but they failed in
tension.
I installed another AL plate under the tunnel top and used A-6 rivets on my
center attach point after what happened to Jim.
Bill Wilcox
N801BW
Valdez C AK
15 hrs on Full Lotus floats
Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness attachment
From: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
Something to think about C because Zenith sure did not do their engineering
calculation with regard to the seatbelts.
I calculated the stock 801 seat belt tabs at 200lb.s at 10G's in shear C if
indeed the rivets don't pull out before that. So I replaced them with 4130
steel the same thickness which I bolted with AN3's to the fueslage
longerons. I
also added structure to the center console.
Crash impacts can go up to 40/50G's and be survivable C so I'm not sure
what they were thinking when the designed the stock ones. But they were
not designed to handle more than the bare minimum.
I suppose if I crash that hard I might not survive anyway C but I sure don't
want to leave on account the seat belt tabs sheared.
Jeff
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See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home C work C or on the go. See Now [quote][b]
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graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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there is a lot of talk of surviving 40/50g crashes
These aircraft are made to fly not crash.
In a reasonable nasty crash (aircraft still flying) I would expect to survive in a CH701
If I dont Fly into any thing solid at High angles of attack.
I have had a crash landing into a cane padock and I and my passenger were unscathed.
The aircraft would be classed af written off.
The seat belt points held.
If you increase the channel attach point what stops the whole channel from pullin out in you 40/50g crash.
What angle of attack and speed do you need to be doing to get a 40/50g crash loading in a CH701.
Graemecns
[quote][b]
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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The important thing to survive any crash are not only the seats belts, or the structure of the airplane in distress, is the ability of the pilot to keep control of the airplane (keep it flying, as much as he is human posible) before touching ground (or what ever material more solid than air gets in the way).
An airplane out of control will increase dramaticaly the speed in only seconds and the force of impact (G's) will go up in doubles way, (I know there is a name for this in english, I am an Engineer, but studied and practice in Mexico (in Spanish is exponencial).
In the same way the survival of the humans (pilot and passengers) decreases the same way.
Forget the structure, train and practice emergencies to fly the airplane always. Eveything else is second in importance, once we survive, we can do anything about it.
Surviving starts with a red face in a ground loop. or when bouncing the landing (with front training wheel)  
Saludos
Gary Gower
Do not archive
--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Graeme <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Graeme <graeme(at)coletoolcentre.com.au>
Subject: Re: RE: 801 seat belts
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 10:34 PM
#yiv1960866632 .hmmessage P { PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;MARGIN:0px;PADDING-TOP:0px;} #yiv1960866632 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} there is a lot of talk of surviving 40/50g crashes
These aircraft are made to fly not crash.
In a reasonable nasty crash (aircraft still flying) I would expect to survive in a CH701
If I dont Fly into any thing solid at High angles of attack.
I have had a crash landing into a cane padock and I and my passenger were unscathed.
The aircraft would be classed af written off.
The seat belt points held.
If you increase the channel attach point what stops the whole channel from pullin out in you 40/50g crash.
What angle of attack and speed do you need to be doing to get a 40/50g crash loading in a CH701.
Graemecns
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[quote][b]
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Joemotis(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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In a message dated 9/16/2008 8:51:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ggower_99(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | | (in Spanish is exponencial). |
In English is exponential.
If you want to make the bracket Bigger, thicker, longer and stronger and to clarify I am NOT an Engineer, what's the worst possible harm?
Joe Motis
No Archivos, Eh
Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
[quote][b]
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Joemotis(at)aol.com
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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: 801 seat belts |
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(was writing an answer and lost it, problably touch the sent button? if not will try one more time, hope is similar... or better)
Hello Joe,
Nothing, no harm at all, maybe that you will not be satisfied with only the bracket, then will reinforce something else, until the plane will be over weight.
We all build our airplanes to enjoy them and fly them the best we can.
When we choose to fly in good weather (do our weather breifing and flight planning), the airplane and the engine has good mantainance, fuel tanks at take off with enough fuel for the trip and plenty of reserve, made a correct prefight (with the card in hand), we take off and land the best we can, we had a good instructor and fly and practice our skills as if "that" instructor was always at our right seat.
Chance are that "this" pilot will need more the safety belts of his car than in his airplane.
1,000's of old retired pilots to proof it.
Yes, I know that accidents happen (most movies have an airplane crash scene, ask the ladies in the grocery store), but I gladly take the risk to drive to and from my airdrome (about one hour drive each way, depends on traffic) to enjoy the safety of a good week end flight in my 701 STOL.
Sadly in my life. I have lost more friends in car an other related accidents that flying. One of them just driving home from a bar with iron safety belt brackets and air bags.
Saludos
Gary Gower
"El tamaño del candado es proporcional con el miedo al robo."
"The size of the padlock is proportional with the fear to the robbery."
Archive if you want
--- On Wed, 9/17/08, Joemotis(at)aol.com <Joemotis(at)aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From: Joemotis(at)aol.com <Joemotis(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: RE: 801 seat belts
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 12:08 AM
In a message dated 9/16/2008 8:51:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ggower_99(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | | (in Spanish is exponencial). |
In English is exponential.
If you want to make the bracket Bigger, thicker, longer and stronger and to clarify I am NOT an Engineer, what's the worst possible harm?
Joe Motis
No Archivos, Eh
|
[quote][b]
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