Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - STOL landings in a 701

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

STOL landings in a 701

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith701801-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: STOL landings in a 701

Some of the videos on U-tube seem to show the 701  literally jumping into the sky and landing in a few plane lengths. I have almost  100 hours in my new 701 and its time to learn how to improve my STOL flying  skills.  

My 701 has a Rotax 100-HP engine with 3-blade  Warpdrive prop. My CG is near the back end of the range due to a BRS behind the  engine compartment. I normally flair at about 60-MPH a few feet  up and use about 400’ of runway. My 701 has Quality Sport  Plane’s 4-position flap control and I usually land with 10 or 15-degrees of  flap. (The device can provide up to 20-degrees of flap and is really easy to  use). 

If you have practiced very short landings, please  let me know what technique works best. I would also like to know if any of you  use flaps for take off and what if any benefit this  provides. 

Thanks for the  advice,Regards,

Les

N67MG

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Petaluma  Ca.

   [quote][b]

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: STOL landings in a 701

Les, since you are near Quality Sport Planes, why not ask Christopher Desmond who he learned from. That fellow will teach you in your own plane in about 5 hours and you will get the most from how to handle the STOL capabilities. The Fellow I use here in Canada has had a recent heart attack and is offline for the remainder of the year.   

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

flicka750

Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 31

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: STOL landings in a 701

This is one of the most interesting questions posted this month, and the poor bloke didn't even get an answer, he was just told to go learn who Chris Desmond learned from ...



Well I asked Chris the same question when he was at EAA Arlington last month. I asked it another way, I told him I wanted to learn how to fly a 701/750 before I finished mine.



He told me it was policy of QSP that people not be trained until their plane was done, now I didn't say anything, but that sounded like malarkey I mean, why can't a person get hours, and learn so they know where the heck they're going. I can get use to anything, but some people really need to learn to fly these things before they spend 1+ years, and $40k! I think its not asking too much to fly a 701 before your fork over the time & money!



Ok, Now I'll answer the question from my humble opinion. All the flying that you see is done BEHIND THE POWER CURVE.



When you say that you flair at 60mph that tells me your in a slow cruise, and not behind-the-power curve.



Behind the power curve means that you have a high attack angle, very high, and very near stall speed, which is 28mph ( or kts ), give yourself a 15% margin say 35mph would be slow-flight, very high attack, high RPM, lots of air going over the rear stabilizer. BASICALLY YOUR FLYING A HELICOPTER, and your sitting back in a couch.



So if it were me, and I wanted to learn to that stuff in the 701 STOL plane, I would spend lots of time at a safe altitude ( >1500 ft ), and really learn how it handles in slow flight. Then you'll be able to do the stuff you see the videos at slow speed with those crazy angles of attack ( nose up ).



The slats on the CH750 don't really kick in until you have a very high angle of attack, at that point your 'CL' lift coefficient is very high, at normal flat cruise, the 'CL' is completely different. Heintz didn't invent the slat it has been around forever. There is a lot of old literature on flying this class of STOL. I saw some awhile back printed by the Australian AOPA equivalent, and it was very interesting.



Now back to training, yes it would be nice to go to QSP and learn to fly a 701, and have someone like Chris Desmond teach you to do what he does, sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone doing this, and the folks at QSP are very busy. They seem to be wanting to sell QB's, and I'm sure if you bought a QB from them, they would sell you the 5+ hours of 701 training with a CFI.



Now could folks here provide a list of trainers for the 701? Probably only 1 or 2 in the USA.



The problem is insurance, as soon as you have a plane classified as a trainer, the insurance is 10X, ok instead of $500/yr hull-only, your talking $5k or MORE.



So there are no trainers, or very few probably one in Mexico-MO, and one at QSP and where else? There are probably a lot of CFI's for the 701, but nobody in their right mind wants to pay the dual instruction insurance.

It's not just ZEN that has this problem, VANS has it also, there are only a few RV-9's & 7's as tail-draggers in the country that have instructional insurance. Thus the 1/2 dozen vans approved instructors have to meet all over the country with students and use Van's planes for instruction. I think Vans charges $40/hr for the plane, and the CFI's charge $120/hr. Not a bad racket. I don't know the numbers for ZEN, because I couldn't get an answer. No surprise there.

[quote="lgold(at)quantum-associat"]Some of the videos on U-tube seem to show the 701  literally jumping into the sky and landing in a few plane lengths. I have almost  100 hours in my new 701 and its time to learn how to improve my STOL flying  skills.  

My 701 has a Rotax 100-HP engine with 3-blade  Warpdrive prop. My CG is near the back end of the range due to a BRS behind the  engine compartment. I normally flair at about 60-MPH a few feet  up and use about 400’ of runway. My 701 has Quality Sport  Plane’s 4-position flap control and I usually land with 10 or 15-degrees of  flap. (The device can provide up to 20-degrees of flap and is really easy to  use). 

If you have practiced very short landings, please  let me know what technique works best. I would also like to know if any of you  use flaps for take off and what if any benefit this  provides. 

Thanks for the  advice,Regards,

Les

N67MG

<xml>Petaluma  Ca.

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

_________________
flicka750(AT)gmail
EINSTEIN:"Common sense is the accumulated prejudices before the age of 18" - Out of My Later Years
TWAIN: "Intercourse is life's most over-rated pleasure, defecation is life's most under-rated pleasure" - Letter's From Earth

sonar1@cox.net

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: STOL landings in a 701

Hi Les:

I didn't reply in the beginning because of your cg. Don't know if my technique would be safe.



I do not fly it behind the power curve as many do.

I approach the 701 at idle power and full flaps and at a speed of 50 mph. It is quite controllable, but the descent rate is steep. If it looks like I am going to overshoot, I just dive it down to my glide path, and pull up the nose. The speed comes right back to 50. (Slowing down to lose altitude doesn't work). There is very little excess energy, so you only get one chance at the flare, but I have never had any problem except a slight tendency of a left yaw in the flare which I can't explain.



Fred Sanford   N9701   Rotax 80 hp.



2005 video at:



http://www.sonar100.com/stol701-1.wmv

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:14 am Post subject: Re: STOL landings in a 701

Les, 



Nice discussion of STOL technique at http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying.htm



I tend to come in power off at just over 50mph, like the prev. poster, and time an aggressive flare, which bleeds the speed quickly.  The above link describes a similar technique, as well as a "behind the power curve" approach, with stated risk and limitations.



I have a rather aft CG, and it still can be tricky when heavy.  This past weekend it was a little gusty and had my father along.  I flared a little early, and then I think there was a little gust from behind (or hole in the headwind) and the bottom dropped out.  I instantly added power and raised the nose to that "tail probably getting close to the ground" AOA, which arrested the descent at some very low airspeed, and was very surprised.  Was able to reestablish a nice rate for touchdown.  Could have also just been that the wind came back on the nose. Or maybe I have more reserve AOA in this mode than I thought, or could learn to get more STOL performance as well.  Now if I had an LRI..  Also been considering the vortex generators for the elevator..



Bill Mileski

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: STOL landings in a 701

Thanks for your advice "flicka750 (It would be nice if you used a real name). 

FYI, Christopher Desmond was kind enough to take me on a demo flight and let me fly his 701 before I purchased a kit... So I guess that "no fly before finished" policy is not written in stone. I do know there are some FAA restrictions on using Experimental Light Sports for flight instructions unless the pilot-in-training owns the plane.  I also want to let you know that Christopher was also kind enough to spend time with me last week explaining how to make STOL landings.

Regards,

Les   



[quote] --

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

mwpicard

Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: STOL landings in a 701

I had a fantastic experience taking a lesson from Paul Reinders who flies floats and skis on his 701 in alaska and is an absolute expert. 



 If you are at all rusty when completing your 701 I would not fly it without getting a few lessons first.  I found it took me 3 hours to get the hang of the differences between it and a supercub on landing.  Without some help I think I would have dented it...



martin

N69999  (i have 9´s to spare if you need one)

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

Last edited by mwpicard on Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: STOL landings in a 701

Martin,

Nice to know that Paul Reinders has helped more than one of us get our 701's

into the sky. 

Paul is a real treasure of 701 knowledge and an excellent teacher. For those

who don't know him, Paul keeps his 701 in Alaska but spends some of his time

in Santa Rosa Ca. I think he has about 35000 flight hours; a retired 747

airlines pilot, active ferry pilot, and flight examiner.  

When I finished my 701 at the beginning of the year Paul was kind enough to

go up with me for its first flight and showed me how to fly it. 108 hours

later I haven't dinged it yet, thanks to Paul!

Les



[quote] --

- The Matronics Zenith701801-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith701801-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum