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rivets working

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khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: rivets working

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv’s, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  

     

  Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

  

  Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

  

  Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

     [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: rivets working

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv’s, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  [quote]  [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: rivets working

Good morning,  

   

There’s an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv’s, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	
		      http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
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       [quote][b]

mr.sun

Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 85

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: rivets working

Since there are just a few rivets that are somewhat loose in the hole, how about a little clear epoxy forced down into the hole and squeegied off the painted surface before it dries?   I remember flying a lot of hours in an Grumman American Yankee that was held together with epoxy.  Wouldn't that work fine until there are a significant number of loose rivets in the same area?

 

do not archive



On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Jack Hilditch <wmjack1(at)t3cs.net (wmjack1(at)t3cs.net)> wrote:

[quote]                

Good morning,  

   

There's an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  



  

   

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv's, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution   	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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[b]

_________________
Greg RV-7

khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: rivets working

Thanks Jack I have  read some of this over, and will read it all.   

   

(later)     Well, I read a lot of it, and now my head hurts,  I am just a hillbilly from S IL.    Way above my head, there are some engineers talking lots of experience there.    

   

Keith Hedrick  

   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Hilditch

 Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 9:04 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Good morning,  

   

There’s an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv’s, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	
 	  Quote: 	
		      	
[/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
 	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


      

  Checked by AVG.

 9/28/2008 1:30 PM

    [quote][b]

khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: rivets working

Hi John,  

   

   

I suspect that to really stop the smoking rivets I need to find the cause of the flight strain and stop it first.   I am not sure where to start.  i cant tell if I have corrosion in the rivets, I don’t see any from the top.    

   

I am still wondering if this is a common or rare occurrence in the 6.    

   

Thanks for your help,  

   

Keith  

64DK   

   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv’s, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	
 	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
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     Checked by AVG.  Date: 9/28/2008 1:30 PM 

  Checked by AVG.

 9/28/2008 1:30 PM

    [quote][b]

khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: rivets working

I don’t know if I could get epoxy in the space or if this would be the best way to repair it. ???  

   

   thanks for the reply.  

   

Keith   

   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mr.gsun(at)gmail.com

 Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:30 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RE: rivets working  

  

     

Since there are just a few rivets that are somewhat loose in the hole, how about a little clear epoxy forced down into the hole and squeegied off the painted surface before it dries?   I remember flying a lot of hours in an Grumman American Yankee that was held together with epoxy.  Wouldn't that work fine until there are a significant number of loose rivets in the same area?

 

 do not archive    

On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Jack Hilditch <wmjack1(at)t3cs.net (wmjack1(at)t3cs.net)> wrote:      

Good morning,  

   

There's an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 11:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

      

   

Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets" can be the result of flight induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe design technique and riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have "Fretted" in their respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.  

   

The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation.  Installing the replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots of RV6 guys who should pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.  

   

I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then subsequent Conditional Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a finding on a base white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight life have been followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and documented them for quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued issues to discuss.  The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling an RV-3 project.  

   

John Cox  

       

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: RE: rivets working  

  

  

   

   

Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the horizontal stabilizer in my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both sides.   I have noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to involve more rivets.    

   

Is this a common thing in older rv's, mine is a vintage 1991.   in fact it was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs on it.  how do I stop it and how do I fix the damage ?  

   

Thanks   

   

Keith Hedrick  

64DK  

(at)  3LF  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution    http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


  

  

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  Checked by AVG.

 9/28/2008 1:30 PM

  

  Checked by AVG.

 9/28/2008 1:30 PM

    [quote][b]

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: rivets working

Keith,

 When & if you drill out one or more of these smoking rivets, inspect the countersink that the rivet nestles into. Local RV owners report that rivets installed into countersunk rather than dimpled holes have a much greater tendency to "smoke". Considering the thin (.016") material of the empennage skins, all holes should be dimpled.

Charlie Kuss

--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Hedrick <khedrick(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Hedrick <khedrick(at)frontiernet.net>

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 11:04 PM

 Hi John,

 

  

 

  

 

 I suspect that to really stop the smoking rivets I need to

 find the cause of

 the flight strain and stop it first.   I am not sure where

 to start.  i cant

 tell if I have corrosion in the rivets, I don't see any

 from the top.  

 

  

 

 I am still wondering if this is a common or rare occurrence

 in the 6.  

 

  

 

 Thanks for your help,

 

  

 

 Keith

 

 64DK 

 

  

 

 Do not archive

 

  

 

   _____  

 

 From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

 John Cox

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:31 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working

 

  

 

 Working rivets, sometimes called "Smokin Rivets"

 can be the result of flight

 induced stress and strain from flight forces, airframe

 design technique and

 riveting technique.  Often, the removed rivets have

 "Fretted" in their

 respective holes.  Fretting is a form of corrosion.

 

  

 

 The removal and re-riveting is one method of remediation. 

 Installing the

 replaced rivets "Wet" is another.  There are lots

 of RV6 guys who should

 pipe in as to whether this is a reasonably common incident.

 

  

 

 I have completed a Pre-purchase Inspection and then

 subsequent Conditional

 Inspection on a 9 year old, 900 hour 6A without such a

 finding on a base

 white topcoat.  Cracks which developed early in the flight

 life have been

 followed without apparent growth.  We measured each and

 documented them for

 quantitative comparison next January.  These are valued

 issues to discuss.

 The original owner moved onto an RV-10 and is now tackling

 an RV-3 project.

 

  

 

 John Cox

 

  

 

 From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of

 Hedrick

 Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:33 PM

 To: 'Hedrick'; rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working

 

  

 

  

 

 Any thoughts on some rivets that are working in the

 horizontal stabilizer in

 my RV 6.   it is the inboard rivets and it is on both

 sides.   I have

 noticed this over a 3 or 4 yr period and it continues to

 involve more

 rivets.  

 

  

 

 Is this a common thing in older rv's, mine is a vintage

 1991.   in fact it

 was # 9 rv 6 kit sold.  The air frame has almost 1000 hrs

 on it.  how do I

 stop it and how do I fix the damage ?

 

  

 

 Thanks 

 

  

 

 Keith Hedrick

 

 64DK

 

 (at)  3LF

 

 

 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

 

 

 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

 

 

 Checked by AVG.

 9/27/2008 1:11 PM

 

  

  

  

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

  

 http://forums.matronics.com

  

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

  

  

  

  

  

 

 

 Checked by AVG.

 1:30 PM

khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: rivets working

Hello Jack,  

   

After more reading on that list, I am thinking that maybe I should not use a stainless cherry blind rivet because of the dissimiliar metals corrosion problem that I could cause.   My first thought was to drill them out and use the stainless.   But even if I do that I still have a rivet that will ‘smoke’ because I don’t think that the cherry blind will be as strong as the driven rivet and prob I still have the problem that caused the rivets to ‘smoke’.     ???    

   

 any thoughts ?  

   

Keith Hedrick   

1991 Rv 6   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Hilditch

 Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 9:04 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Good morning,  

   

There’s an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

   	  Quote: 	
		   	


      

  Checked by AVG.

 9/29/2008 7:25 PM

     [quote][b]

wmjack1(at)t3cs.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: rivets working

Hi Keith,  

   

I don’t really have a specific suggestion on replacement strategy which is what led me to the engineering tips list in the first place.  I was looking for references on ‘wet’ rivet replacement. I would suggest posting your question to that list so we can all benefit from what that wealth of knowledge might be able to give us. I do, however, have a story on why I think this is such an important topic, particularly to those of us who build and fly our own creations.  

   

I spent quite a few years racing sailboats, primarily in salt water environments. Most masts and more than a few hulls at the time were aluminum while hardware (fairleads, turning buckles, screws, etc.) were either stainless or bronze.  Mechanically fastening dissimilar metals in a saline environment is, in essence, creating a battery.  What happens then is the least noble metal becomes sacrificial and aluminum was almost always the ‘sacrificial lamb.’ In other words, aluminum surrendered its structural properties and turned to aluminum oxide. Periodically (at least once every year in those days) we would pull masts out of the boats to remove all rigging and fasteners. Aluminum oxide, a white powder, would be present everywhere dissimilar metals came into contact.  We tried many and varied electrostatic barrier coatings to minimize the electrolysis but none of them provided a 100% solution. We knew we had a problem but those old ‘gotchas’ of time, technology, costs and schedules demanded we stick with a solution we knew would allow us to at least stay within a predictable serviceability matrix through constant maintenance.  Was it ideal?  Absolutely not, but it was what we had to work with at the time.    

   

It really got our attention, at one point in the late 1970’s, when a mast-mounted halyard reel winch on a sixty-foot sailboat, under shear load in the vicinity of 6000+ lbs, was incorrectly fed its 3/8” 7x19 galvanized halyard cable. The cable imparted a ‘racking’ or fulcrum force to the winch thereby putting its upper SS fasteners into compression and its lower SS fasteners into tension. These fasteners had quietly built up a significant barrier coat of aluminum oxide between them and the aluminum mast due to an errant electrical current being introduced elsewhere in the (also) aluminum hull, nowhere near the mast-mounted winch. The result was the lower SS winch fasteners pulled out of the mast under load and the winch tore off the mast with great force. The modulus of elasticity in the galvanized halyard cable allowed it to store significant energy which it then used to propel a 50+ lb winch upward into the face of the deckhand operating it.  The result was a broken jaw, several lost teeth, several other facial bones broken, a concussion and a (this is not a drill) man overboard exercise at sea. It caught our attention without any doubt. It also pointed out to us that even when you run regular, scheduled and thorough maintenance schedules, unexpected elements creep in.    

   

We eventually traced the errant electrical current to a corroded bonding strap on a sacrificial anode attached to a through-hull fitting. That missing anode allowed current from another boat in the marina to enter our hull through an unprotected conduit making the entire boat and rig into an active battery.  We found considerably more electrolysis than normal during the immediately scheduled haul out. It was everywhere and had weakened a number of fastening points where stainless met aluminum.  

   

This is a long-winded way to say I’m a true believer and have great respect for making sure mechanical fastenings in an aluminum structure are properly done, regularly maintained and constantly inspected, particularly when it is my butt sitting in the aircraft at altitude.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

        

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hedrick

 Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:09 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Hello Jack,  

   

After more reading on that list, I am thinking that maybe I should not use a stainless cherry blind rivet because of the dissimiliar metals corrosion problem that I could cause.   My first thought was to drill them out and use the stainless.   But even if I do that I still have a rivet that will ‘smoke’ because I don’t think that the cherry blind will be as strong as the driven rivet and prob I still have the problem that caused the rivets to ‘smoke’.     ???    

   

 any thoughts ?  

   

Keith Hedrick   

1991 Rv 6   

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Hilditch

 Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 9:04 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Good morning,  

   

There’s an excellent discussion on the engineering tips forum on rivets and replacement (albeit on much heavier airframes) but it is certainly worth a read.  

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=15349&page=6  I would also guess that you could get a specific answer there as well.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

Riviting my RV-9A Fuselage at the moment.  

        

  

   	  Quote: 	
		   	
  



 Checked by AVG.

 9/29/2008 7:25 PM   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List 	
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2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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       [quote][b]

khedrick(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: rivets working

Jack,  

   

A riveting story with a moral.    It scares me to think about it.    even though I don’t expect it to be in salt water I don’t like the dissimilar metals thing.     

   

Thanks,  

   

Keith  

   

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Hilditch

 Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:38 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RE: rivets working  

  

   

Hi Keith,  

   

I don’t really have a specific suggestion on replacement strategy which is what led me to the engineering tips list in the first place.  I was looking for references on ‘wet’ rivet replacement. I would suggest posting your question to that list so we can all benefit from what that wealth of knowledge might be able to give us. I do, however, have a story on why I think this is such an important topic, particularly to those of us who build and fly our own creations.  

   

I spent quite a few years racing sailboats, primarily in salt water environments. Most masts and more than a few hulls at the time were aluminum while hardware (fairleads, turning buckles, screws, etc.) were either stainless or bronze.  Mechanically fastening dissimilar metals in a saline environment is, in essence, creating a battery.  What happens then is the least noble metal becomes sacrificial and aluminum was almost always the ‘sacrificial lamb.’ In other words, aluminum surrendered its structural properties and turned to aluminum oxide. Periodically (at least once every year in those days) we would pull masts out of the boats to remove all rigging and fasteners. Aluminum oxide, a white powder, would be present everywhere dissimilar metals came into contact.  We tried many and varied electrostatic barrier coatings to minimize the electrolysis but none of them provided a 100% solution. We knew we had a problem but those old ‘gotchas’ of time, technology, costs and schedules demanded we stick with a solution we knew would allow us to at least stay within a predictable serviceability matrix through constant maintenance.  Was it ideal?  Absolutely not, but it was what we had to work with at the time.    

   

It really got our attention, at one point in the late 1970’s, when a mast-mounted halyard reel winch on a sixty-foot sailboat, under shear load in the vicinity of 6000+ lbs, was incorrectly fed its 3/8” 7x19 galvanized halyard cable. The cable imparted a ‘racking’ or fulcrum force to the winch thereby putting its upper SS fasteners into compression and its lower SS fasteners into tension. These fasteners had quietly built up a significant barrier coat of aluminum oxide between them and the aluminum mast due to an errant electrical current being introduced elsewhere in the (also) aluminum hull, nowhere near the mast-mounted winch. The result was the lower SS winch fasteners pulled out of the mast under load and the winch tore off the mast with great force. The modulus of elasticity in the galvanized halyard cable allowed it to store significant energy which it then used to propel a 50+ lb winch upward into the face of the deckhand operating it.  The result was a broken jaw, several lost teeth, several other facial bones broken, a concussion and a (this is not a drill) man overboard exercise at sea. It caught our attention without any doubt. It also pointed out to us that even when you run regular, scheduled and thorough maintenance schedules, unexpected elements creep in.    

   

We eventually traced the errant electrical current to a corroded bonding strap on a sacrificial anode attached to a through-hull fitting. That missing anode allowed current from another boat in the marina to enter our hull through an unprotected conduit making the entire boat and rig into an active battery.  We found considerably more electrolysis than normal during the immediately scheduled haul out. It was everywhere and had weakened a number of fastening points where stainless met aluminum.  

   

This is a long-winded way to say I’m a true believer and have great respect for making sure mechanical fastenings in an aluminum structure are properly done, regularly maintained and constantly inspected, particularly when it is my butt sitting in the aircraft at altitude.  

   

Regards,  

     

Jack   

   	  Quote: 	
		   	


      

  Checked by AVG.

 9/29/2008 7:25 PM

     [quote][b]

Rick Galati

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: rivets working

The RV has been around for some time now and over the years the basic design has been tweaked, finessed and improved as data from the field eventually filtered back to the factory.  With thousands of examples built over a couple of decades, sometimes dramatic improvements to the basic design have been made.  Also, you have to take it as a given that some RV's are constructed by true craftsmen while most builders are less skilled but still set the bar with an eye towards above average quality. Arguably, most RV's are of average construction quality yet we know that at the lower end of the spectrum lesser quality built RV's continue to be assembled by those less skilled or builders possessed of the famous "Build On!" mentality. 

  

 It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets occurring here or there, but it is quite another for such rivets to be dispassionately examined by someone who really knows what to look for. Many theories have been posted on this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no exception. By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a combination of both. A common rivet gage relied upon and interpreted correctly by the builder would do more to prevent smoking rivets than any other single action. 

  

Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many rivet patterns located on skins  seem to be marginal at best and tend towards being a bit too short. I observed early on that often times shooting such rivets could cause the shop head to be almost swallowed by its dimpled hole already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder under  sets such rivets, the builder is just asking for the under-swelled rivets to work loose over time and the same thing goes if the rivet is slightly over shot. What little is left of an over-shot rivet shop head has precious little dimpled material to grip onto. To help prevent both scenarios, I routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A plans had even shorter -3 length rivets occasionally called out yet I could never accept that.  I refused to install AD3-3 length rivets anywhere period. 







 Using a rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it instead of my eyeballs, my experience has been it that is much more difficult to correctly set an almost too short AD3 rivet than it is to set one that is just slightly longer in length.  The reasons can vary.  Example: The plans do not account for primer coat thickness. Another example: There can be some variance in material thickness. For instance .032 or any other aluminum sheet may slightly vary in thickness from one lot to the next.  Check it out yourself with a micrometer! You will find that sheet metal can vary in thickness just as the diameter of any random but seemingly identical AN bolt can.  Lesson: Variances add up.



One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas as I pounded away on F-4's, F15's, and F18's was that blue-print fastener length call-outs are often in error and it is always up to the installer to verify the correct grip length is used in any given situation. Later on, I discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV construction as well.

  

 Rick Galati 

 RV-6A "Darla"

 RV-8 N308R

 [quote][b]

Last edited by Rick Galati on Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:04 am; edited 2 times in total

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: rivets working

I'll second Rick's opinion that Vans often (almost always on the 8A) calls out rivets that are 1/2 size to short in length.

Charlie Kuss

--- On Fri, 10/3/08, Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: RE: rivets working

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:55 PM

snipped

 Â 

 It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets

 occurring here or there, but it is quite another for such

 rivets to be dispassionately examined by someone who really

 knows what to look for. Many theories have been posted on

 this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no exception.

 By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part

 caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a

 combination of both. A common rivet gage relied upon and

 interpreted correctly by the builder would do more to

 preventÂ smoking rivets than any other single action. 

 Â 

 Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many

 rivet patterns located on skinsÂ  seem to be marginal at

 best and tend towards being a bit too short. I observed

 early on that often times shooting such rivets could cause

 the shop head to be almost swallowed by its dimpled hole

 already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder under

 sets such rivets, theÂ builder is just asking for the under

 swelled rivets to work loose over time and the same thing

 goes if the rivet is slightly overshot. What little is left

 of an over shotÂ rivet shop head has precious little dimpled

 material to grip onto. To help prevent both scenarios, I

 routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even

 though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a

 particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A

 plansÂ had even shorter -3 length rivet lengths occasionally

 called out yet I could never accept that. Â I refused to

 installÂ AD3-3 length rivets

  anywhere period. 

 Â 

 

 Â 

 Using aÂ rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it

 instead of my eyeballs, my experience has been it that is

 much more difficult to correctly set an almost too short AD3

 rivet than it is to set one that is just slightly longer.Â 

 I routinely install slightly longer rivets even though the

 plans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular

 stack-up of materials.Â Example: The plans do not account

 for primer thickness. 

 Â 

 One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas

 as I pounded away on F-4â€™s, F15â€™s, and F18â€™s was that

 blue-print fastener length call-outs are often in error and

 it is always up to the installer to verify the correct grip

 length is used in any given situation. Later on,

 IÂ discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV

 construction practices as well.

 Â 

 Rick Galati 

 RV-6A "Darla"

 RV-8 N308R

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: rivets working

Rick, your closing statement is Dead On.  It is always up to the manufacturer/builder (not a computer CAD person) to determine the correct rivet length.  Once builders get proficient, if they desire to do it right, the eye ball method of "rivet tail" to be bucked for the diameter used will work quite well.  One task which brings that home is a double countersink rivet installation.  On the manufactured head, the depth of countersink comes into play but on the working end of the other side, you must be dead on for length "beyond the group or the opposing  countersink will be Forever Shy or Proud.  

   

Not all double countersinks can be shaved.  

   

In EAA projects, the quality and standard is set by the Builder, not the plans creator.  

   

John Cox  

EAA Tech Advisor    

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati

 Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:56 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: rivets working   

  

              

The RV has been around for some time now and   over the years the basic design has been tweaked, finessed and   improved as data from the field eventually filtered back to the factory.    With thousands of examples built over a couple of decades, sometimes   dramatic improvements to the basic design have been made.    Also, you have to take it as a given that some RV's are constructed by   true craftsmen while most builders are less skilled but still set the bar   with an eye towards above average quality. Arguably, most RV's are of average   construction quality yet we know that at the lower end of the spectrum    lesser quality built RV's continue to be assembled by less skilled builders   or builders builders possessed of the famous "build on" mentality.    

      

    

      

It is one thing to describe smoking or   working rivets occurring here or there, but it is quite another for such   rivets to be dispassionately examined by someone who really knows what to   look for. Many theories have been posted on this thread and rest assured my   pet theory is no exception. By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for   the most part caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a combination   of both. A common rivet gage relied upon and interpreted correctly by the   builder would do more to prevent smoking rivets than any other single   action.    

      

    

      

Too often, I have observed the grip length   call-out of many rivet patterns located on skins  seem to be marginal at   best and tend towards being a bit too short. I observed early on that often   times shooting such rivets could cause the shop head to be almost swallowed   by its dimpled hole already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder under   sets such rivets, the builder is just asking for the under swelled   rivets to work loose over time and the same thing goes if the rivet is   slightly overshot. What little is left of an over shot rivet shop   head has precious little dimpled material to grip onto. To help prevent both   scenarios, I routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even though   the plans may well call out a shorter length for a particular stack-up of   materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A plans had even shorter -3 length   rivet lengths occasionally called out yet I could never accept that.  I   refused to install AD3-3 length rivets anywhere period.    

      

    

      

   

      

    

      

Using a rivet gage supported my   suspicions. Relying on it instead of my eyeballs, my experience has been it   that is much more difficult to correctly set an almost too short AD3 rivet   than it is to set one that is just slightly longer.  I routinely install   slightly longer rivets even though the plans may well call out shorter   lengths for a particular stack-up of materials. Example: The plans do   not account for primer thickness.    

      

    

      

One thing I learned on the shop floor at   McDonnell-Douglas as I pounded away on F-4¢s, F15¢s, and F18¢s was that   blue-print fastener length call-outs are often in error and it is always up   to the installer to verify the correct grip length is used in any given   situation. Later on, I discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV   construction practices as well.   

      

    

      

Rick Galati    

      

RV-6A "Darla"   

      

RV-8 N308R   

        [quote]  [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List[/b][/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/b] [b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: rivets working

John Cox wrote:

snip

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Not all double countersinks can be shaved.

Oh, so true! >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   In EAA projects, the quality and standard is set by the Builder, not the 

 plans creator.

Again, oh so true!
	


But how many 'double countersinks' do you see on GA production 

aircraft???  Some folks seem the set them as the standard.  I've seen 

production stuff that would make you cringe.  I'm no rivet expert ..... 

but I don't think if you pounded 20% 'bad' rivets and left them there 

that you'd have a problem .... unless you mashed them all in one area 

... not a statistical feat in my opinion.

Linn



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 

 John Cox

 

 EAA Tech Advisor

 

 *From:* owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Galati

 *Sent:* Friday, October 03, 2008 12:56 PM

 *To:* rv-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: rivets working

 

  

 

 The RV has been around for some time now and over the years the basic 

 design has been tweaked, finessed and improved as data from the field 

 eventually filtered back to the factory.  With thousands of examples 

 built over a couple of decades, sometimes dramatic improvements to the 

 basic design have been made.  Also, you have to take it as a given that 

 some RV's are constructed by true craftsmen while most builders are less 

 skilled but still set the bar with an eye towards above average quality. 

 Arguably, most RV's are of average construction quality yet we know that 

 at the lower end of the spectrum  lesser quality built RV's continue to 

 be assembled by less skilled builders or builders builders possessed of 

 the famous "build on" mentality.

 

  

 

 It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets occurring here or 

 there, but it is quite another for such rivets to be dispassionately 

 examined by someone who really knows what to look for. Many theories 

 have been posted on this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no 

 exception. By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part 

 caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a combination of both. 

 A common rivet gage relied upon and interpreted correctly by the builder 

 would do more to prevent smoking rivets than any other single action.

 

  

 

 Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many rivet 

 patterns located on skins  seem to be marginal at best and tend towards 

 being a bit too short. I observed early on that often times shooting 

 such rivets could cause the shop head to be almost swallowed by its 

 dimpled hole already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder 

 _under_ sets such rivets, the builder is just asking for the under 

 swelled rivets to work loose over time and the same thing goes if the 

 rivet is slightly overshot. What little is left of an _over_ shot rivet 

 shop head has precious little dimpled material to grip onto. To help 

 prevent both scenarios, I routinely install slightly longer half-size 

 rivets even though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a 

 particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A plans had even 

 _shorter_ -3 length rivet lengths occasionally called out yet I could 

 never accept that.  I refused to install AD3-3 length rivets anywhere 

 period.

 

  

 

 

 

  

 

 Using a rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it instead of my 

 eyeballs, my experience has been it that is much more difficult to 

 correctly set an almost too short AD3 rivet than it is to set one that 

 is just slightly longer.  I routinely install slightly longer rivets 

 even though the plans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular 

 stack-up of materials. Example: The plans do not account for primer 

 thickness.

 

  

 

 One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas as I pounded 

 away on F-4¢s, F15¢s, and F18¢s was that blue-print fastener length 

 call-outs are often in error and it is always up to the installer to 

 verify the correct grip length is used in any given situation. Later on, 

 I discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV construction 

 practices as well.

 

  

 

 Rick Galati

 

 RV-6A "Darla"

 

 RV-8 N308R

 

 * *

 

 * *

 

 **

 

 **

 

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 

 **

 

 **

 

 http://forums.matronics.com

 

 **

 

 **

 

 **

 

 http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

 **

 

 * *

 

 *

 

 

 *

robertrv607(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: rivets working

Just follow the techincal manuals, used in Aircraft Mfg. if I recall the

 lenght of  the portion of the rivet shown, after the pieces are held together, should

 be 1-1/2 the diameter of the rivet...

  

 Almost any book shows  how to figure this out etc... even Aircraft Spruce if

 I recall has at the end of the book, tables for all this, and more,..

  

 bert

  

 rv6a



--- On Fri, 10/3/08, Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: RE: rivets working

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 5:33 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>



I'll second Rick's opinion that Vans often (almost always on the 8A)

calls out rivets that are 1/2 size to short in length.

Charlie Kuss

--- On Fri, 10/3/08, Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Rick Galati <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: RE: rivets working

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:55 PM

snipped

  

 It is one thing to describe smoking or working rivets

 occurring here or there, but it is quite another for such

 rivets to be dispassionately examined by someone who really

 knows what to look for. Many theories have been posted on

 this thread and rest assured my pet theory is no exception.

 By and large, I believe smoking rivets are for the most part

 caused by improper rivet use or builder error or a

 combination of both. A common rivet gage relied upon and

 interpreted correctly by the builder would do more to

 prevent smoking rivets than any other single action. 

  

 Too often, I have observed the grip length call-out of many

 rivet patterns located on skins  seem to be marginal at

 best and tend towards being a bit too short. I observed

 early on that often times shooting such rivets could cause

 the shop head to be almost swallowed by its dimpled hole

 already enlarged by the dimpling process. If a builder under

 sets such rivets, the builder is just asking for the under

 swelled rivets to work loose over time and the same thing

 goes if the rivet is slightly overshot. What little is left

 of an over shot rivet shop head has precious little dimpled

 material to grip onto. To help prevent both scenarios, I

 routinely install slightly longer half-size rivets even

 though the plans may well call out a shorter length for a

 particular stack-up of materials. My 2000 vintage RV-6A

 plans had even shorter -3 length rivet lengths occasionally

 called out yet I could never accept that.  I refused to

 install AD3-3 length rivets

  anywhere period. 

  




	


 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Using a rivet gage supported my suspicions. Relying on it

 instead of my eyeballs, my experience has been it that is

 much more difficult to correctly set an almost too short AD3

 rivet than it is to set one that is just slightly longer. 

 I routinely install slightly longer rivets even though the

 plans may well call out shorter lengths for a particular

 stack-up of materials. Example: The plans do not account

 for primer thickness. 

  

 One thing I learned on the shop floor at McDonnell-Douglas

 as I pounded away on F-4¢s, F15¢s, and F18¢s was that

 blue-print fastener length call-outs are often in error and

 it is always up to the installer to verify the correct grip

 length is used in any given situation. Later on,

 I discovered that same familiar truth applies to RV

 construction practices as well.

  

 Rick Galati 

 RV-6A "Darla"

 RV-8 N308R


	




      



	
	


         [quote][b]

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