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Almost ready to fly

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stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

After many years of on and off work my Kitfox Md 4 582 1050 ser # 1451is ready for inspection and paper work.

 But one last problem and as I have been reading this list for some time I am confident there is an answser there.

 I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths

 out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet.  When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount.

 So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at

 4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.?

 Thank You for any help you can give me.

  

 Cecil Stokesberry in North Idaho - N161CP



  [quote][b]

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

Cecil,

  

 The 582 is notorious for a fierce vibration at idle speeds. There's no cure except adding a prop clutch. It engages at about 2500 rpm, after which vibration shouldn't be an issue. But if you're still vibrating at 4K rpm, you might have another problem. Are all the plugs firing? Have you checked those other variables you mentioned: balance, pitch and tracking? What prop are you swinging?

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

 Kitfox 2 582-90 C-Box

 

--- On Fri, 9/19/08, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>

Subject: Almost ready to fly

To: Kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, September 19, 2008, 5:39 PM



   After many years of on and off work my Kitfox Md 4 582 1050 ser # 1451is ready for inspection and paper work.

 But one last problem and as I have been reading this list for some time I am confident there is an answser there.

 I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths

 out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet.  When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount.

 So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at

 4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.?

 Thank You for any help you can give me.

  

 Cecil Stokesberry in North Idaho - N161CP



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


         [quote][b]

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

Cecil – I have a K III w/ a 582 and know of several others and it is pretty typical for them to have to be above 3200 rpm to run smoothly. Have you checked the pitch on you prop? I.E. all blades the same? I had a small vibration problem when one blade moved on me. How long has it been since they were torqued?  

   

Frank Miles  

Lewiston, Idaho  

K III  w/ 582  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 2:40 PM

 To: Kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Almost ready to fly  

  

       

After many years of on and off work my Kitfox Md 4 582 1050 ser # 1451is ready for inspection and paper work.  

    

But one last problem and as I have been reading this list for some time I am confident there is an answser there.  

    

I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths  

    

out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet.  When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount.  

    

So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at  

    

4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.?  

    

Thank You for any help you can give me.  

    

   

    

Cecil Stokesberry in North Idaho - N161CP  

  

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       [quote][b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Almost ready to fly

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths 

out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet. When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount. 

So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at 

4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.? 	




Cecil, the best advice I can give for setting up a two stroke rotax for the first time is:



First check all carb jets, needles, air screw and idle adjustments to be sure they are set to factory recommended specifications for the engine, altitude and air temperature.



Next adjust the prop to a recommended starting pitch.  Take time and care to be sure all blades are pitched equal and tracking is within limits.



Tie the tail to a tree, start the engine and let it warm up at 3000 rpm or less for a good 10 minutes.  It should be running smooth at this point.  If not there is something else causing the vibration.  When warm give it a short full throttle run to check RPM.  You want 6200-6300.  If not, repitch the prop and do it again.  Monitor the EGT to check that it is less than 1200 during the run up.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

Marco C Installed and plumbed the header tank today with the low fuel warning system you recommended from ACS. I bought the light also C but should have just used a Radio Shack LED.

  

  

 Pat do not archive

   

 Date: Fri C 19 Sep 2008 15:29:13 -0700

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Almost ready to fly

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

     Cecil C

  

 The 582 is notorious for a fierce vibration at idle speeds. There's no cure except adding a prop clutch. It engages at about 2500 rpm C after which vibration shouldn't be an issue. But if you're still vibrating at 4K rpm C you might have another problem. Are all the plugs firing? Have you checked those other variables you mentioned: balance C pitch and tracking? What prop are you swinging?

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

 Kitfox 2 582-90 C-Box

 

--- On Fri C 9/19/08 C Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net>

Subject: Almost ready to fly

To: Kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday C September 19 C 2008 C 5:39 PM



   After many years of on and off work my Kitfox Md 4 582 1050 ser # 1451is ready for inspection and paper work.

 But one last problem and as I have been reading this list for some time I am confident there is an answser there.

 I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths

 out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet.  When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount.

 So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at

 4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.?

 Thank You for any help you can give me.

  

 Cecil Stokesberry in North Idaho - N161CP



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


[quote]



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tfox-List

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[b]

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

Thank you all for your input..it has been very useful to me...this is my first 

 experience with a 2-stroke.

 I have the 3-blade GSC and just pitched it and torqued it to 100 in lbs.

 And it tracks nicely.  The higher RPM the smoother the engine runs.  

 Which makes me think the prop is ok.

 I have .5 hours breaking in the engine.  As it warms up it smooths out.  

 During this time I have noticed that the brakes do not hold at appx 5000 rpm.

 Tying to a tree is good advice.  Ran at 5000 rpm (for 5 min after 10 min at 3200)

 than quickly ran up to 6500 rpm which seemed to be max and back to 3000.

 It seems to have great power and sounds good.  EGT at 1100.  Water temp 170.

 Outside temp was 80 degrees.  Front cyl runs hotter than rear.

 The engine is now very smooth at or above 3200 rpm.

 When I shut the engine off it vibrates considerably.  Is there a preferred method of 

 shutting down - ign or throttle first ? or ?

 If the oil injection fails, how long will the engine run before quiting?  

 What symptoms will there be ?

 Thanks again !  

 Waiting for DAR

 Cecil - N161CP



 On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net (nahsikhs(at)elltel.net)>

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am beginning to break in the engine - it started nicely but very rough from idle to about 4000 rpm then it smooths

 out - I have not run greater than 4000 rpm yet. When the engine stops it shakes violently in the motor mount.

 > So the question is - will the break-in procedure cure this problem? - Is the prop out of balance (even thou smooth at
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   4000 rpm)? - Is the prop pitch out of wack (different pitch on each blade) ? Any other ideas as to this problem.?

 
	




Cecil, the best advice I can give for setting up a two stroke rotax for the first time is:



First check all carb jets, needles, air screw and idle adjustments to be sure they are set to factory recommended specifications for the engine, altitude and air temperature.

 

Next adjust the prop to a recommended starting pitch.  Take time and care to be sure all blades are pitched equal and tracking is within limits.



Tie the tail to a tree, start the engine and let it warm up at 3000 rpm or less for a good 10 minutes.  It should be running smooth at this point.  If not there is something else causing the vibration.  When warm give it a short full throttle run to check RPM.  You want 6200-6300.  If not, repitch the prop and do it again.  Monitor the EGT to check that it is less than 1200 during the run up.

 

--------

Tom Jones

Classic IV

503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp

Ellensburg, WA





Read this topic online here:



[url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 5267#205267]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 5267#205267[/url]

 

  [quote][b]

paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

On Sat, September 20, 2008 9:05 pm, Cecil Stokesberry wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Outside temp was 80 degrees.  Front cyl runs hotter than rear.


	


That's a sign that the mixture is leaner on the front cylinder. If the mixture is a

little too lean that can lead to seizing. I'd do some checking.



 	  Quote: 	
		   ....quickly ran up to 6500 rpm which seemed to be max and back to 3000.


	


IIRC, the rpm should be a little lower than that when tied to a tree. I believe you

want the max rpm capability at best rate of climb speed so static (runup condition)

should be lower and therefore you might set your prop for a bigger bite. Check your

engine operation manual or talk to Rotax for recommended optimal rpm. If the prop

doesn't have enough pitch, you won't be able to develop max hp without over speeding

the engine.



Never run that engine too lean. Biggest cause of two stroke early failures is seizing

from too lean a mixture. Richer mixtures provide substantial cooling.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Almost ready to fly

Cecil



What type of engine mount do you have for the 582, side mounted or bottom mounted, and what gearbox. The bottom mounts are known for vibration problems but the side mounts can only be used with the C gearbox in 3:1 ration http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb17.htm



Alternatively it could be that your carbs need tuning and balancing. We had a similar problem with our Mk III 582 recently after visiting a flyin. Engine ran rough at lower RPM but smooted out at higher speeds. Seemingly some touchy-feely visitior may have reached into the front opening in the cowl and unknowingly changed the air screw (fuel/air mix) on the front carb putting them out of balance. The vibration was such that a precautionary landing was considered and I think we may have had a temperature imbalance in the cylinders that you have noticed also. This is an indication that one cylinder is richer/leaner than the other.



Here is a useful guide to setting up Bing carbs http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginetroublshooting/techtips/techtips2.htm. I'm sure you are already aware that one should remove the prop when doing this  



 	  Quote: 	
		  Paul

Richer mixtures provide substantial cooling. 	


and sufficient lubrication, given that this is 2-stroke the lubrication is in the fuel oil mix.

Tom Beirne

Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 13
Location: Ireland

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Almost ready to fly

 	  Quote: 	
		  Cecil

The engine is now very smooth at or above 3200 rpm.

When I shut the engine off it vibrates considerably. Is there a preferred method of

shutting down - ign or throttle first ? or ?

If the oil injection fails, how long will the engine run before quiting?

What symptoms will there be ? 	




We never let the engine idle with the throttle fully closed (except during landing rollout), even descents are made at 4000 rpm to prevent plug fouling. After starting the engine is immediately set to just over 3000 for warm up, anything less than that produces 4-stroking in the engine and a lot of vibration. Allow a few minutes at this idle to let the engine warm up as the tolerances are very tight and things need to expand a little.



When shutting down again let the engine idle at it's lowest happy setting for about a minute to stabilise the temps then kill the ignition first. This will leave a good coating of fuel/oil mix inside the crankcase and cylinders. The fuel will evaporate and leave a film of oil to help resist internal corrosion.



With regard to oil injection failure symptoms the first will probably be the temps, have a read of http://www.kitfox.eu/technical/two-stroke/2-stroke.pdf on page 2. The document opens sideways but if you right-click and pick "rotate sideways" 3 times you can get it the right way up. I don't know how long it would last but I don't think that you would have long.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Almost ready to fly

At 09:05 PM 9/20/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  During this time I have noticed that the brakes do not hold at appx 5000 rpm.


	


Your brakes should hold at full throttle. See the recent thread on 

weak brakes. It included some very good information on pedal geometry 

and tubing.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Tying to a tree is good advice.  Ran at 5000 rpm (for 5 min after 10 

min at 3200)

than quickly ran up to 6500 rpm which seemed to be max


	


You will probably want to be closer to 6200 rpm on static run-up. 

You'll get a better launch with the higher rpm, but may loose a few 

mph top end.



 	  Quote: 	
		  When I shut the engine off it vibrates considerably.  Is there a 

preferred method of

shutting down - ign or throttle first ? or ?


	


I know the 912s crowd has a tough time shutting down smoothly. (Check 

the Rotax list for more info.) If my feeble memory serves correctly 

some of them were shutting off the ignition at a "smooth" rpm and 

letting the engine run down. You might try that. If you aren't averse 

to spending some more money and time I highly recommend the RK400 

clutch available at 

http://www.air-techinc.com/catlist.asp?categoryID=atclutch&typ=Exclusives.



 	  Quote: 	
		  If the oil injection fails, how long will the engine run before quiting?

What symptoms will there be ?


	


It will get very, very quiet, then very hot & humid, and you may 

notice objectionable odors emanating from your drawers. 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Almost ready to fly

More than likely it's the idle jets.  The  stock ones are too rich at near sea level.  Go to the next leaner set and I  think you'll see a marked improvement.  

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

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