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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

To all Lightning listers,

     As most of you know this weekend is the second  annual Lightning Fly-In at the Lightning "factory" in 

 Shelbyville, TN.  The SYI guys have lots of good things planned for us  and will be introducing two new members of their group.  Katie is their new  "staff" pilot and will be doing both OT&E flights (Phase 1 type stuff) plus  she will be flying some of the transition training flights for them as  well.  I have had the pleasure of flying with Katie on several sorties  while here and she is a good pilot that will fit in well with the overall  Lightning team.  "Cleco" is the other new member of the Lightning  group.  She has a somewhat "catty" reputation and has been seen trying to  rub up on Nick and Mark, and has even been seen sitting on their laps trying to  get some attention.  I must admit, she is cute little female, but I think  Katie is easier to talk "airplanes" to and is just as cute.  Now don't  blush Katie.  

    Actually the fun has already  started as far as I am concerned.  I arrived last Thursday and Joe and  Linda Mathias got here Tuesday.  They are making some mods to their  airplane and I have been having a great time doing some performance testing on  the recently "reconfigured" Lightning Demo.  If you haven't guessed what I  am talking about, I am going to "spill the beans" so to speak.   Nick  liked the new wing tip extensions on the prototype so much that he has  retrofitted them to the new demo.  I must say I am really impressed.   Those darn things are actually faster than the shorter original tips, especially  at altitude (about 5 mph at 10,000'), and of course they lower the stall  speed, shorten the takeoff roll, increase the rate of climb, and increase  service ceiling.  The other day (after it got too bumpy for accurate  rate of climb test down low) I decided to "go high" just for fun.  On the  way to 14,000 I decided to time the climb from 9,000 feet to 10,000  feet.  Before I tell you what I got on the stop watch (yes a real stop  watch - remember I had been doing Vx and Vy testing down low) I want to remind  you that for best rate of climb you should use true airspeed, especially when up  high.  So using the true airspeed of what I had previously determined was  Vy for the demo, it only took me 1:07 to climb the 1000' between 9 and 10  thousand feet.  I thought that was pretty amazing - darn near 1000 feet per  minute at that altitude.  

     It is late, so I will sign off now, but you really  need to make it to this Saturday's fly in at SYI.  We will be doing lots of  demo rides, some formation flying, lots of hangar talk, a few  briefings, some skunk works experiments, and there is always the  chance of a surprise event.  You really need to be here if you are even  halfway interested in the Lightning.  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz



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  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

In a message dated 9/25/2008 12:54:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Nick liked the new wing tip extensions on the prototype so much    that he has retrofitted them to the new demo.  I must say I am really    impressed.  Those darn things are actually faster than the shorter    original tips, especially at altitude (about 5 mph at 10,000'), and of    course they lower the stall speed, shorten the takeoff roll, increase the    rate of climb, and increase service ceiling.  The other day (after    it got too bumpy for accurate rate of climb test down low) I decided to "go    high" just for fun.  On the way to 14,000 I decided to time the    climb from 9,000 feet to 10,000 feet.  Before I tell you what I got on    the stop watch (yes a real stop watch - remember I had been doing Vx and Vy    testing down low) I want to remind you that for best rate of climb you should    use true airspeed, especially when up high.  So using the true airspeed    of what I had previously determined was Vy for the demo, it only took me 1:07    to climb the 1000' between 9 and 10 thousand feet.  I thought that was    pretty amazing - darn near 1000 feet per minute at that altitude.   	


 

  

 Every good thing comes at a price.

  

 Our initial experience with the wing extensions is that they dramatically  change the landing angle.   the plane tends to "float" with any excess  airspeed, and makes landing over an obstacle or into a tight field  difficult.  Also, at the lower speeds, the airspeed indicator doesnt read  very well. Our local builder is debating wether to cut his off!!!

  

 Also, the roll is significantly more difficult.  That fighterlike  quickness is dulled.   Aileron rolls are a lot tougher I have  heard.

  

 We will be completeing a second one with the extensions in a couple  weeks.

  

 In my initial opinion, it depends greatly on your mission  profile.  If you are going long distances from paved runway to paved  runway, then the tips may be the way to go.   If you want to make  shorter hops into grass strips or tight places, then the standard tips may be  better.  If you need to lower your stall, then use the VGs.

  

 Again, this is just initial testing for some Green Landings builders.   And it comes from hangar talk.  But it would appear  there is a down  side to the wing tip extensions.   

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



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  [quote][b]

Wayne Lenox

Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Arizona in the winter

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

Doug 

Let me jump in on the new wing tip extensions. I have the first owner built Lightning with wing tip extensions. I sure like the look, however everything you said is true. In the first 40 hrs of flying I pretty will got to know them. I have about 30 hrs in the standard Lighting (N838BF) and now with 40 hrs in (N123WL) my lightning. The Ailerons are stiffer with the long wings. I have tried to change the position of the aileron push rods for more mechanical advantage, but would not get all the throw needed to get full aileron deflection. The control stick would hit my knee first. 

To help the float on landing I have gone to 40 degrees of flap landings. I put the last 10 degrees in when I slow to 60 MPH on final. 

The Lightning stalls very hard with airspeed below 38MPH indicated. I am not an expert, but think the tail feathers stall before the wings and my Lightning will pitch over in a dive. I will loose 300 ft looking straight at the ground. I found the stall charistics much different, and very mild in the standard Lightning.  

If I were building a new lightning I would put the new wing tips on just for show. However I would cut off 6 to 10 inches off the new tips. This would give you 8 to 12 inch tips, instead of 18 inch. This would still give you somewhat slower stall speed and have all the great look of the new tips. Might even help with the aileron stiffness. 

Remember I am no expert, but this is my 2 cents worth. 

Wayne 

N123WL



-- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:

  In a message dated 9/25/2008 12:54:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Nick liked the new wing tip extensions on the prototype so much that he has retrofitted them to the new demo.  I must say I am really impressed.  Those darn things are actually faster than the shorter original tips, especially at altitude (about 5 mph at 10,000'), and of course they lower the stall speed, shorten the takeoff roll, increase the rate of climb, and increase service ceiling.  The other day (after it got too bumpy for accurate rate of climb test down low) I decided to "go high" just for fun.  On the way to 14,000 I decided to time the climb from 9,000 feet to 10,000 feet.  Before I tell you what I got on the stop watch (yes a real stop watch - remember I had been doing Vx and Vy testing down low) I want to remind you that for best rate of climb you should use true airspeed, especially when up high.  So using the true airspeed of what I had previously determined was Vy for the demo, it only took me 1:07 to climb the 1000' between 9 and 10 thousand feet.  I thought that was pretty amazing - darn near 1000 feet per minute at that altitude.  	


 

  

 Every good thing comes at a price.

  

 Our initial experience with the wing extensions is that they dramatically change the landing angle.   the plane tends to "float" with any excess airspeed, and makes landing over an obstacle or into a tight field difficult.  Also, at the lower speeds, the airspeed indicator doesnt read very well. Our local builder is debating wether to cut his off!!!

  

 Also, the roll is significantly more difficult.  That fighterlike quickness is dulled.   Aileron rolls are a lot tougher I have heard.

  

 We will be completeing a second one with the extensions in a couple weeks.

  

 In my initial opinion, it depends greatly on your mission profile.  If you are going long distances from paved runway to paved runway, then the tips may be the way to go.   If you want to make shorter hops into grass strips or tight places, then the standard tips may be better.  If you need to lower your stall, then use the VGs.

  

 Again, this is just initial testing for some Green Landings builders.  And it comes from hangar talk.  But it would appear  there is a down side to the wing tip extensions.   

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



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info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

I believe builders and pilots alike must first learn to properly fly the new tips to get the most out of them. The wing is completely different and thus must be flown is such a manner. We will use 50-55mph with 40 flaps on final approach and can get in shorter than was able with the old tips, due of course to the slower speed. Yes if you carry 5-10 extra you will not be able to land as short as you could but again it is a different wing and should be flown that way. The only down side to the tips is not in the performance of the tip but in the way the pilot must fly the aircraft to get the proper results, they must be more attentive to speed. The deck angle should be no different as the angle at which the airfoil stalls is the same but the ability to fly the aircraft slower to reach this deck angle is different. Remember the old at any airspeed, and any attitude a wing will stall, right but the AOA that the wing stalls at will be the same for a given airfoil regardless of length or area.  Yes the roll is slower but not any less responsive, and again if you want to do rolls this is not the aircraft for your mission. If your ASI doesn’t work that low get a better one, the Sport EFIS has no issue reading accurately to 30mph and the aircraft at gross stalls around 38IAS with 40 flaps so you should be on the ground before it stops working.  

We have done pleanty of testing on paved and on grass strips here and a Lightning equipped with the wing tips and correct prop will get off the ground quicker climb steeper and go faster at altitude than one with out. Also it will come in slower and land shorter too.   

   

Nick Otterback  

Arion Aircraft, LLC  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 8:50 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner  

  

       

In a message dated 9/25/2008 12:54:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

 Nick liked the new wing tip extensions on the prototype so much that he has retrofitted them to the new demo.  I must say I am really impressed.  Those darn things are actually faster than the shorter original tips, especially at altitude (about 5 mph at 10,000'), and of course they lower the stall speed, shorten the takeoff roll, increase the rate of climb, and increase service ceiling.  The other day (after it got too bumpy for accurate rate of climb test down low) I decided to "go high" just for fun.  On the way to 14,000 I decided to time the climb from 9,000 feet to 10,000 feet.  Before I tell you what I got on the stop watch (yes a real stop watch - remember I had been doing Vx and Vy testing down low) I want to remind you that for best rate of climb you should use true airspeed, especially when up high.  So using the true airspeed of what I had previously determined was Vy for the demo, it only took me 1:07 to climb the 1000' between 9 and 10 thousand feet.  I thought that was pretty amazing - darn near 1000 feet per minute at that altitude.    	
  

    

   

    

Every good thing comes at a price.  

    

   

    

Our initial experience with the wing extensions is that they dramatically change the landing angle.   the plane tends to "float" with any excess airspeed, and makes landing over an obstacle or into a tight field difficult.  Also, at the lower speeds, the airspeed indicator doesnt read very well. Our local builder is debating wether to cut his off!!!  

    

   

    

Also, the roll is significantly more difficult.  That fighterlike quickness is dulled.   Aileron rolls are a lot tougher I have heard.  

    

   

    

We will be completeing a second one with the extensions in a couple weeks.  

    

   

    

In my initial opinion, it depends greatly on your mission profile.  If you are going long distances from paved runway to paved runway, then the tips may be the way to go.   If you want to make shorter hops into grass strips or tight places, then the standard tips may be better.  If you need to lower your stall, then use the VGs.  

    

   

    

Again, this is just initial testing for some Green Landings builders.  And it comes from hangar talk.  But it would appear  there is a down side to the wing tip extensions.     

    

   

    

Doug Koenigsberg  

  



 

         

  

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Colin K.

Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 157
Location: Oklahoma

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

I am sorry to say I will not make it to the  fly-in this year.

  

 Truth be told, I am ashamed to show my face  due to the almost total lack of progress on my Lightning this summer. No-one's  fault but my own.

  

 The summer wasn't totally wasted  however, as I have increased the plane's passenger or luggage carrying  capacity by 14lbs! 

  

 I hope you all have a great time and learn a  lot this weekend.

  

 Now that the garage has cooled down, I will  be getting back to work.

  

  

Colin K. 

OK 

Lightning # 52 under construction. 

http://www.mykitlog.com/cojaken  

 [quote]   

   --

_________________
Colin K.
OK

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

In a message dated 9/25/2008 9:52:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Our initial experience with the wing extensions is that they dramatically    change the landing angle.   the plane tends to "float" with any    excess airspeed, and makes landing over an obstacle or into a tight field    difficult.  Also, at the lower speeds, the airspeed indicator doesnt read    very well. Our local builder is debating wether to cut his off!!!

    

   Also, the roll is significantly more difficult.  That fighterlike    quickness is dulled. 

	


 

 I must say I am surprised at Doug's comments above and Wayne's agreeing  that everything he said was true.  You guys are trying to land the new wing  tip extension Lightning too fast.  In fact Doug states that it will "float"  with any excess airspeed.  Heck, any airplane will float with excess  airspeed - that is what excess means - too much.  The amount of float  depends on two basic things - how excessively fast you are and how "slick" an  airplane is will effect energy bleed off.  I have no idea what you mean by  them dramatically changing the landing angle, but they stall at exactly the same  angle of attack as the short wing Lightning.  They both have the same  airfoil.  I think we all learned that in Aero 101.  

  

 I have flow both the prototype and the demo with the new tips and I really  like the way they fly and the way they land - and it lands just like the  short wing version, just slower.  Yes, the roll response is just  slightly slower (it never did have fighter like quickness).  The  control response is nice - with the pitch being lighter than 99% of general  aviation aircraft and the roll, because of the high aspect wing, being heavier  than pitch.  As speed increases, pitch stays relatively light, but roll  forces increase, once again because of the high aspect  wing.   

  

 I guarantee you, if flown properly you can get into and out of a much  shorter runway (with or without trees on the end) with the new wing  extensions.  Also, the wing with the new extensions still slips just  fine if you find yourself slightly high and fast on final.  Or as Nick  suggested use 40 degrees of flaps if you find yourself high or slightly  fast.  But what you really want to do is fly the proper speeds in the  pattern.  And don't fly those wide bomber or airline type approaches.   Shoot for 1.3 times the stall speed rolling out on a 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile  final and let that speed bleed off over the overrun as you get ready to  touch down.  And know what a 1/4 mile or a 1/2 mile looks like.  How  long is your runway?  Is is 2,500 feet long (about 1/2 mile); is it 5000'  (about 1 mile)?  That will help you judge how far out your base should  be.  And learn to start "seeing" the desired glide path while you are still  on downwind.  Sorry to sound like I am preaching, but wide patterns and  landing too fast are some of the things that bother me.  And did I say full  stall landing?  Please go back to one of the previous Lightning newsletters  and re-read the article that Nick and I co-authored about landings.  If you  disagree with anything in that article or anything I said above, lets talk about  it.   You know what they say, you can either agree with me or be  wrong.   Please at least smile at this, I am trying to inject some  humor.  

  

 Today I flew the demo again doing more preliminary ASTM testing for the  future SLSA Lightning.  I took off with the airplane weighing exactly 1320  pounds, immediately climbed to 5,000 to do heavy weight stall testing.  OAT  at 5,000 MSL was 66 degrees and the density altitude was 6250'.  Clean  stall was 52 miles per hour (will be easily below 52 at sea level for light  sport).  Stall at 10 degree flaps was 48 mph, 20 degree flap stall was 44  mph, 30 degree stall was 42 mph, and 40 degree stall was 38 mph.  There was  a nice buffet about 3 mph above each stall, and all were straight forward (you  must keep the ball centered) except for a slight right roll (I sit on the right  side) on the 40 degree stall.  Since Lightning recommends using 30 degree  flaps for a normal landing your final approach speed should be 1.3 X 42 mph  which would be 54.6 mph.  Lets make it 55 for an easier number to  remember.  Yes, you can add half the gust factor for gusting winds, but  don't start adding 5 mph for each kid, 5 mph for the bride, and 5 mph because it  is the fourth Thursday of the month.  Just fly 55 on final and you will  find it lands just fine, doesn't float excessively, and certainly doesn't have a  "different landing angle" - what ever that is.  Heck, I will even let you  use 60 on final with no problems getting down and clear of the runway in about  1,000 feet.  

  

 Guys, I don't care if you have 40,000 hours or 40 hours.  If you fly  any airplane like we talked about above you will have a great chance of making  good landings.  Well, maybe not the lunar lander.  But my point is  -follow the basic rules and you will do fine.  Hangar talk is sometimes  interesting to listen to, but if it goes against the basic rules of good stick  and rudder airmanship, don't put too much credence into it.

  

 Again, sorry to get so long winded, but I want everyone to know that his  airplane (with or without the new wings tip extensions) flys just fine when  flown and landed the way all airplanes should be flown.  Yes, they may be  exceptions (the lunar lander) but the Lightning is not one of them.

  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

 PS:  Airspeed control.  



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  [quote][b]

Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

In a message dated 9/26/2008 12:14:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I must say I am surprised at Doug's comments above and Wayne's agreeing    that everything he said was true.  You guys are trying to land the new    wing tip extension Lightning too fast.  In fact Doug states that it will    "float" with any excess airspeed.  Heck, any airplane will float with    excess airspeed - that is what excess means - too much.  The amount of    float depends on two basic things - how excessively fast you are and how    "slick" an airplane is will effect energy bleed off.  I have no idea what    you mean by them dramatically changing the landing angle, but they stall at    exactly the same angle of attack as the short wing Lightning.  They both    have the same airfoil.  I think we all learned that in Aero 101.     

    

	


 

 Perhaps this will help.

  

 If you pull the power of on a Piper Tripacer and pull on the flaps, it will  come down out of the sky like a greasy brick.  With the same engine as a  Cessna 172, they are nearly equal in top speed and useful load.  It is very  hard to over shoot a runway in a Tripacer.  You can also land over trees  easily.  The angle it follows to the ground without power is steep.

  

 A 172 will also descend at the same speed but a shallower angle.  You  have a bit of float before touchdown.

  

 The difference, of course, is the airfoil and wing length....along with  drag.

  

 With a short wing Lightning, when you pulled the power off and dropped all  the flaps when you were committed to the landing, it had a kinda steep angle and  touched down quickly.  The long wing wont do that.  It just doesn't  bleed off airspeed.

  

 Now I understand that the two most experienced pilots we have flying the  Lightning may not be doing it right.  They will be spanked and sent to bed  without their supper.   They will be forced to memorize everthing that  Nick and Buzz have said.  They will have to do 500 landings before they can  give their opinion.

  

 BUT there is one other factor.  The new wing tips are not easy to get  on straight.  It may be possible to twist them slightly adding washin or  washout to the wing.   The other complaint is that the stall is  actually HIGHER  than before.    In my mind it is quite  possible that the plane Nick and Buz is flying is not rigged the same as ours.  So we could be talking two very different handling planes.

  

 We shall see.

  

 Doug Koenigsberg



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  [quote][b]

info(at)flylightning.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

As far as wash out or set is concerned. Yes I have noticed that the right tip is not a perfect fit and we will work on the mold. But if your AOI of the wings is correct when built , than with flaps retracted and ailerons rigged level with those, you should be assured that when lining the tips up to the trailing edge they should have no washout or other wise in them.   

   

As far as the stall speed I can tell you that it is lower. We are doing very much testing with some really neat equipment for the SLSA certification. AOA is the same at stall, Actual clean stall is 5-6mph slower.   

   

No memorization needed the book will be out soon.  

   

Nick   

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kayberg(at)aol.com

 Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:05 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner  

  

       

In a message dated 9/26/2008 12:14:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

I must say I am surprised at Doug's comments above and Wayne's agreeing that everything he said was true.  You guys are trying to land the new wing tip extension Lightning too fast.  In fact Doug states that it will "float" with any excess airspeed.  Heck, any airplane will float with excess airspeed - that is what excess means - too much.  The amount of float depends on two basic things - how excessively fast you are and how "slick" an airplane is will effect energy bleed off.  I have no idea what you mean by them dramatically changing the landing angle, but they stall at exactly the same angle of attack as the short wing Lightning.  They both have the same airfoil.  I think we all learned that in Aero 101.    

    

   

  	
  

    

Perhaps this will help.  

    

   

    

If you pull the power of on a Piper Tripacer and pull on the flaps, it will come down out of the sky like a greasy brick.  With the same engine as a Cessna 172, they are nearly equal in top speed and useful load.  It is very hard to over shoot a runway in a Tripacer.  You can also land over trees easily.  The angle it follows to the ground without power is steep.  

    

   

    

A 172 will also descend at the same speed but a shallower angle.  You have a bit of float before touchdown.  

    

   

    

The difference, of course, is the airfoil and wing length....along with drag.  

    

   

    

With a short wing Lightning, when you pulled the power off and dropped all the flaps when you were committed to the landing, it had a kinda steep angle and touched down quickly.  The long wing wont do that.  It just doesn't bleed off airspeed.  

    

   

    

Now I understand that the two most experienced pilots we have flying the Lightning may not be doing it right.  They will be spanked and sent to bed without their supper.   They will be forced to memorize everthing that Nick and Buzz have said.  They will have to do 500 landings before they can give their opinion.  

    

   

    

BUT there is one other factor.  The new wing tips are not easy to get on straight.  It may be possible to twist them slightly adding washin or washout to the wing.   The other complaint is that the stall is actually HIGHER  than before.    In my mind it is quite possible that the plane Nick and Buz is flying is not rigged the same as ours. So we could be talking two very different handling planes.  

    

   

    

We shall see.  

    

   

    

Doug Koenigsberg  

  



 

         

  

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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

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  [quote][b]

N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

Doug,

     Sorry to take so long to answer your last  message.  I will comment on several of your thoughts:

  

 With a short wing Lightning, when you pulled the power  off and dropped all the flaps when you were committed to the landing, it had a  kinda steep angle and touched down quickly.  The long wing wont do  that.  It just doesn't bleed off airspeed.

 The "long wing" Lightning will do that - just at a slower airspeed.  I  will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the "long wing" Lightning can get off  shorter and land shorter than the standard wing in any airfield you chose.   

  

 The new wing tips are not easy to get on  straight.  It may be possible to twist them slightly adding washin or  washout to the wing.   The other complaint is that the stall is  actually HIGHER  than before.    In my mind it is quite  possible that the plane Nick and Buz is flying is not rigged the same as ours.  So we could be talking two very different handling planes.

 You may have hit on something here, Doug.  If you are basing your  comments on an airplane that does not have the wing tip extensions installed  correctly, then you are only talking about that one airplane, not all Lightnings  with the wing tip extensions.  Both the Prototype with the tip extensions  and now the demo with the extensions and Lynn Nelsons recently completed  Lightning (with the new tips) definitely stall at a much slower speed.   Because of that they get off quicker, climb faster, actually cruise a little  faster, and can land shorter than the original Lightning wing.  Of course  the original Lightning was no slouch at all of these parameters, but the new  extensions just improve all of these.  

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

 PS:  A helicopter with engine failure will come down faster than  a Tri Pacer with engine failure.  



Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial chall0686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" href=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.

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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

"I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the "long wing" Lightning can get off shorter and land shorter than the standard wing in any airfield you chose."  

  

 Huh oh C I feel a future fly-off coming on!  Seriously though C that might not be a bad idea at the Lightning fly-in.  You can fly a million test flights and have gobs of supporting data and yet people sometimes just won't believe you until you put it out there and let them see it with their own eyes.  Brian W.

 

   

 From: N1BZRich(at)aol.com

Date: Sun C 28 Sep 2008 13:01:58 -0400

Subject: Re: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

  Doug C

     Sorry to take so long to answer your last message.  I will comment on several of your thoughts:

  

 With a short wing Lightning C when you pulled the power off and dropped all the flaps when you were committed to the landing C it had a kinda steep angle and touched down quickly.  The long wing wont do that.  It just doesn't bleed off airspeed.

 The "long wing" Lightning will do that - just at a slower airspeed.  I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the "long wing" Lightning can get off shorter and land shorter than the standard wing in any airfield you chose.  

  

 The new wing tips are not easy to get on straight.  It may be possible to twist them slightly adding washin or washout to the wing.   The other complaint is that the stall is actually HIGHER  than before.    In my mind it is quite possible that the plane Nick and Buz is flying is not rigged the same as ours. So we could be talking two very different handling planes.

 You may have hit on something here C Doug.  If you are basing your comments on an airplane that does not have the wing tip extensions installed correctly C then you are only talking about that one airplane C not all Lightnings with the wing tip extensions.  Both the Prototype with the tip extensions and now the demo with the extensions and Lynn Nelsons recently completed Lightning (with the new tips) definitely stall at a much slower speed.  Because of that they get off quicker C climb faster C actually cruise a little faster C and can land shorter than the original Lightning wing.  Of course the original Lightning was no slouch at all of these parameters C but the new extensions just improve all of these.  

 Blue Skies C

 Buz

 PS:  A helicopter with engine failure will come down faster than a Tri Pacer with engine failure.  



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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Lightning Fly-In is just around the corner

Thanks for your comments, Buz, but I am at the mercy of hearsay and some  observations.

  

 The plane that is the major source of our experience also has prop  problems, so there is also a dispute about thrust on takeoff.  The pilot  claims that it does NOT get off quicker that it formerly did and also claims  that it stalls higher.  There is no question it takes a lot more runway  than the local Esqual and lands significantly longer.....in the hands to two  different pilots.

  

 I am just saying that if you increase wing length but do not increase drag,  you will have a lot more lift.  That is obvious.   You are saying  that if you decrease speed, you should have the same angle of descent as  before.   But I wonder if there is more to it.....raising the question  of tip installation and possible differences in aerodynamics.

  

 I have not had the opportunity to fly it since I am not on his  insurance.

  

 Perhaps we should suspend this thread until we simply get more flying done  with this plane and also the next one in line. 

  

 Or maybe you want to stop at Green Landings and fly it!!

  

 Doug

  

  

  

 In a message dated 9/28/2008 1:03:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  N1BZRich(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Doug,

       Sorry to take so long to answer your last    message.  I will comment on several of your thoughts:

    

   With a short wing Lightning, when you pulled the    power off and dropped all the flaps when you were committed to the landing, it    had a kinda steep angle and touched down quickly.  The long wing wont do    that.  It just doesn't bleed off airspeed.

   The "long wing" Lightning will do that - just at a slower airspeed.     I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the "long wing" Lightning can get off    shorter and land shorter than the standard wing in any airfield you    chose.  

    

   The new wing tips are not easy to get on    straight.  It may be possible to twist them slightly adding washin or    washout to the wing.   The other complaint is that the stall is    actually HIGHER  than before.    In my mind it is quite    possible that the plane Nick and Buz is flying is not rigged the same as ours.    So we could be talking two very different handling planes.

   You may have hit on something here, Doug.  If you are basing your    comments on an airplane that does not have the wing tip extensions installed    correctly, then you are only talking about that one airplane, not all    Lightnings with the wing tip extensions.  Both the Prototype with the tip    extensions and now the demo with the extensions and Lynn Nelsons recently    completed Lightning (with the new tips) definitely stall at a much slower    speed.  Because of that they get off quicker, climb faster, actually    cruise a little faster, and can land shorter than the original Lightning    wing.  Of course the original Lightning was no slouch at all of these    parameters, but the new extensions just improve all of these.  

   Blue Skies,

   Buz

   PS:  A helicopter with engine failure will come down faster    than a Tri Pacer with engine failure.   

	


 

  



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