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Platypus Hop

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vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

To the rest of u it would be a crow hop (or  negative Kolb Drop) but I think my Xtra looks more like a  platypus.

 Since all I have is 2.2 hrs. legal instruction all  I can do is taxi practice for now.

 I've taxied at 3600rpm and maybe 30 mph while  keeping the tail hard to the ground.

 This time I was down wind at maybe 2600rpm and no  more than 25 mph.

 I released back pressure on the stick but still  with full back trim. This is actually neutral

 elevator cause the prop just pushes it down. I just  did this to keep the tail wind from pushing me

 all over the place.

 Bada Bing my first solo flight. I couldn't believe  it did a 3 point lift off going that slow.

 To my amazement I did'nt panic just held the stick  where it was and slight easing back of power.

 Landed like a feather.

  

 Now I know to experienced pilots thats a non event  but to a 60 yr old newbie that 3.5 second 6ft 

 altitude flight was monumental.

 I was so tickled with myself I had to tell someone  and then take a nap.

  

 Vic 

 Xtra 912ul

 N740VP

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

Vic:

  

 Careful.

  

 You are not taxiing at 30 mph.

  

 Three point position is perfect for  takeoffs.

  

 Check with Bill Sullivan on handling down  drafts.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

clrprop

Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 44
Location: SC

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Platypus Hop

Congrats Vic,

That's 6ft higher than I've been yet !

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject: Platypus Hop

Congratulations on your  solo. You know you can never repeat that experiance. Always be  prepaired to leave tera firma when taxiing . I have never flown a extra but the  MK111 will lift off in that attitude no problem. It just wants to be off the  ground .

 Regards

           Downunder

           Tony

            MK111

   

 [quote]   From:    VICTOR PETERS (vicsv(at)verizon.net)    

   To: Kolb list (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 3:18    AM

   Subject: Platypus Hop

   



   To the rest of u it would be a crow hop (or    negative Kolb Drop) but I think my Xtra looks more like a    platypus.

   Since all I have is 2.2 hrs. legal instruction    all I can do is taxi practice for now.

   I've taxied at 3600rpm and maybe 30 mph while    keeping the tail hard to the ground.

   This time I was down wind at maybe 2600rpm and no    more than 25 mph.

   I released back pressure on the stick but still    with full back trim. This is actually neutral

   elevator cause the prop just pushes it down. I    just did this to keep the tail wind from pushing me

   all over the place.

   Bada Bing my first solo flight. I couldn't    believe it did a 3 point lift off going that slow.

   To my amazement I did'nt panic just held the    stick where it was and slight easing back of power.

   Landed like a feather.

    

   Now I know to experienced pilots thats a non    event but to a 60 yr old newbie that 3.5 second 6ft 

   altitude flight was monumental.

   I was so tickled with myself I had to tell    someone and then take a nap.

    

   Vic 

   Xtra 912ul

   N740VP

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Platypus Hop

 	  Quote: 	
		  I was so tickled with myself I had to tell someone and then take a nap. 

	




Priceless Vic ! Absolutely priceless !



David.



Do Not Achieve

vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

Wow All

 Too much input for me to handle.

 I told my feet which pedal to push but they  would'nt listen, even at 5mph while

 riding the brakes. After I instilled a little fear  in them and 6 to 8 hrs later they got it right.

 I can now taxi down the runway at 35 mph, tail up  and on one wheel. ( just foolin)

 I gave myself the practice I new I needed and it  worked. I never go out in any substantial winds.

 Jeremy said it right. Kolbs do lift off at lower  than stall speeds especially with

 that "Xtra" nose lift from a minor xwind. Seems to  me you are flying as long as you stay in ground effect. You may not learn to fly  on from this list but you shure can learn a lot about Kolb (peculiarities) No  disrespect meant John but after 2 or 3 thousand hrs. nothing would seem  peculiar.

 Maybe my logic is a little off but it seems to me a  ground loop at 25 or 30 mph is safer

 than one at 60 while landing. Can I take off if I  hopped a little to high and had no runway left. You bet. Can I land. Don't know  yet. Haven't tried it solo.

 I know everyone means well but at my age being told  to be carefull sounds kinda funny.

 If I were any more carefull I'd live to be 160 and  nobody wants that.

 I like Arty's (I think it's hers) quote " I refuse  to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death"

  

 So Bill S. where exactly would you put that  instructor in your Kolb? I'm assuming your doing better glad to hear it. Get  right back on the horse (with instruction ofcourse) and if that doesn't work  shoot him in the head. The horse I mean.

  

 By the way my instructor is 200 mi. away roofing  and won't be back till spring. Soooo I think I'll put the Full Lotus on for some  fast snow taxi. No lets call it very low and very slow flight.

  

 Vic

 Platypus driver

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

Vic:

  

 Correct me if I am wrong, please.  However, I  have never seen an airplane fly below stall speed, in or out of ground effect (  or is it affect???).  I try to understand stall speed will be a little less  in ground effect than it is out of ground effect.  I don't want to have any  thoughts in my mind that I can ever fly less than stall speed.  In an  emergency, I might believe that it can.  ;-(

  

 Based on the little bit of Xtra flying I have done,  I wouldn't depend on "nose lift" to much from the Xtra.

  

 What little I know about aerodynamics, you can't  ground loop a Kolb at 60.  You'd have a hard time ground looping one at  30.  It is hard to hold a Kolb straight down the runway in a 15 mph direct  cross wind.  There is an awful lot of resistance, in that big vertical  stabilizer and rudder, to push it against the airstream.

  

 "Hopping" to me, is flying.  I consider flying  being airborne.  When the wheels are off the ground, you are  airborne.

  

 I believe one can legally log flight time from the  time of engine start.  I'd have to go dig in the regs to confirm.  I  can not remember, for sure.............

  

 Why flirt with disaster.  If I had any idea I  was going to get airborne, and did not know if I could safely land, I think I  would wait on my instructor to teach me how.  Then, when he turned me loose  for solo, probably would not bust my butt.

  

 I don't know about you.  I'm pushing 70  and have to be more careful now than I did 10 or 20 years ago.  I heal  a lot slower now than I did then.

  

 Kolb peculiarities may be the wrong word.   Maybe Kolb characteristics would be a better discription of  differences between different aircraft.

  

 Getting loaded up to head out to Larry and Karen  Cottrell's for a few weeks.  From there I plan to wonder around out West  for a couple months, until I get tired of the Gypsie lifestyle, or run out of  money and diesel fuel.  Got the ATV and dirt bike loaded up and ready to  go.  I plan to be more careful out there this year.  Last year I  busted my butt at Nellis Dunes, my first attempt at riding dunes on a dirt  bike.  I did not have "solo" sign off.    After 11 months, I'm  still recuperating from that one.  No one told me sand dunes had nice  gentle slopes up one side and drop offs on the other.    I know  now.

  

 john h

 Kolb Pilot/Builder

  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      

   Jeremy said it right. Kolbs do lift off at lower    than stall speeds especially with

   that "Xtra" nose lift from a minor xwind. Seems    to me you are flying as long as you stay in ground effect. You may not learn    to fly on from this list but you shure can learn a lot about Kolb    (peculiarities) No disrespect meant John but after 2 or 3 thousand hrs.    nothing would seem peculiar.

    

   Maybe my logic is a little off but it seems to me    a ground loop at 25 or 30 mph is safer

   than one at 60 while landing. 

    

   Can I take off if I hopped a little to high and    had no runway left. You bet. Can I land. Don't know yet.  

    

   I know everyone means well but at my age being    told to be carefull sounds kinda funny.

    

   Vic

    

	
   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jeremy said it right. Kolbs do lift off at lower than stall speeds 

 especially with

 that "Xtra" nose lift from a minor xwind.

*<snip>
	


Correction, said "planes"(Nothing particular there about Kolbs) can 

liftoff lower than "stall" speed...i.e. "Bottom of the Green arc" (as 

mentioned later in the post) or in FAA speak "V s" (Big letter V, little 

letter s).  Try to climb out of Ground effect at lower than Vs and you 

will mush right back down..sometimes real hard.  By the way, Ground 

effect is generally considered approx. 1/2 of wingspan (30' wingspan, 

15' off the ground).  Now point of the post is don't get anywhere near 

stall speed on the ground unless you are trained and capable of taking 

off, flying and landing safely...



Jeremy

*

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Platypus Hop

Hi John/All,

  

          Technically correct.  If the aircraft is stalled, it can't fly.   That's not to say the bird can't fly with the ASI at '0', though.  Your  plane can't read the ASI, so it will fly when it's ready.   Have  done it many times.  Flew a Cessna 206 with half flaps, half fuel and solo.  Took off, flew around with a ridiculous angle-of-attack. Flight well behind the  power curve.  Stall warning vane didn't go off, cause there wasn't enough  airflow. The ASI is a trend instrument anyway, shows you where you've been. Keep  in mind, stall speed will vary with weight, stall angle-of-attack does  not.

  

         This all  varies with VG's, of course.  ;^)

  

 Ed in JXN

 MkII/503

 [quote]   ---

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Platypus Hop

 	  Quote: 	
		  Stall warning vane didn't go off, cause there wasn't enough airflow. 	




Don't buy that one Ed. It may not have worked because it was incorrectly set or it was jammed or the buzzer wasn't working or something similar, but not because there wasn't enough airflow. If it was flyable then there was enough airflow to move a serviceable vane and thus activate the stall warning horn, also assuming you were close to that critical angle.



Glad you returned safely to mother Earth though.



David.

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

David,



        Sorry you feel that way, but anyone who's been around the vane-type 

devices awhile can attest to their limitations.    They go off routinely in 

turbulence, for example. This was a factory-new aircraft used for 

photography, everything working normally. In this case, lotsa power + well 

below gross weight + high AOA = flight with no indicated airspeed or stall 

warning. An AOA indicator would've been a more effective stall warning 

device, but very costly.



        Fly with a missionary or bush pilot sometime, they do the 

unbelievable as a routine.



Ed in JXN

Do not archive.

---

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Platypus Hop

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sorry you feel that way, 	




Don't worry Ed. Good debate is what this is all about. Got about 1000 hrs in Cessna and similar types and understand the limitations of the Vane type stall warning systems. The stall warning can certainly go off in turbulence, but that's when the airflow change due to that turbulence is in the same direction , for an instant, as that of an approaching stall situation. So the system is working 'as advertised' ! Also got several hundred C206 hours' at all weights and configurations and have seen low indicated airspeed such as in the short field T/Off of Landing scenario, but with one exception, have never had 'no indicated airspeed' unless I was taxying or stopped ! I fully agree that the A of A indicators are the way to go, but something must be wrong to be able to fly with no indicated airspeed. Blocked Pitot tube for example. That was the 'exception', I had it taking off on a one way downhill strip and found out later that a wasp had decided to build his mud nest in the pitot tube = Flight with no indicated airspeed. Flew out just on familiar attitude and power settings, feel etc, but that was the exception, not the rule.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Fly with a missionary or bush pilot sometime 	
 



Got some time there. 3,500 + hours jungle flying in Papua New Guinea. Always had some airspeed indication whilst airborne.



Ed, something is wrong if you have 'no airspeed' indication if flight. Even the old 206 workhorse would show airspeed from about 20 knots. Can't relate to the Kolb yet, perhaps some others can educate me there.



Take care and Fly safe !



David.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Platypus Hop

Vic,



I have to give you the same advice John H is giving you on this.  If you are taxiing fast enough for the plane to fly, you are asking for disaster.  The little hops can get much higher and out of control very quickly...  There is a very good chance you will find yourself not in a hop any more and actually flying much to high to simply chop the power and let it come down like a feather.  It all changes once you get higher !!!  Pull the power and keep that pitch attitude higher off the ground, and you will stall and come down like a ton of bricks.  BTW, the Kolb MK III Xtra actually pitches UP if you chop the power, which makes it that much harder if you have gotten higher than a couple feet.  I am not trying to rain on your parade, it feels great and easy to hop a couple of feet in ground effect, but this is a setup for disaster if you are not ready to fly.  If you have decided to teach yourself to fly this way, then I hope you have the skill to learn to fly without damaging yourself or totaling your airplane.   If you are under the illusion that you will just continue to do crow hops and that they wont turn into anything more, you are probably in for a big surprise.



There are plenty of guys around that can teach you to fly your MK III Xtra.  If you have previous flight time, it wont take you long to learn to fly a your MK III Xtra, it will be easy.  Even just a couple hours in the air in a MK III Xtra will make all the difference in the world in your ability to solo in your plane.  It will be well worth whatever trouble you have to go to to get instruction and do this the right way.   You will make very little progress in your flying if you are rebuilding your airplane for the next year.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Platypus Hop

The ASI is a pressure differential gauge. No positive indication means

it is not sensing different pressures at the two sources.



Possible causes include:

Blocked pitot,

Static inlet in same airstream as pitot,

Gage is screwed up internally,

Pitot inlet tube disconnected at the gage.

..



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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