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2-stroke oil

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: 2-stroke oil

Kitfoxers, I know the archives are full of opinoins  on oils. The 582 grey head I purchased used was sold to me with 100 hrs as time  on it. I pulled the exhaust off, looked in the ports and can't believe the cross  hatch pattern in the bore. To me it looks as if the engine was never even broken  in. The previous owner was in California anfd said he used AV2 oil. Over the  last 30 years I have used AMS Oil in every type of 2 stroke engine application  you can name. I swear by it. (Dave I know that the petro based oils give better  corrosion resistance in humid conditions and I am a little afraid of the  synthetic in for my plane as I know my hanger is not heated and condensationis a  big problem. Now, after looking at my pristene bores after 100 hrs  with AV2 I think I would be remiss not to use AV2. What do you guys think of  AV2?

  

 do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL 

   [quote][b]

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: 2-stroke oil

Pat, the AV2 might be good stuff, but don't be too  eager to use the cross hatching as an indicator of the oil quality.  I used  Pennzoil premium air cooled oil and mine looked the same after 400 hours.   Generally the rings wear much faster than the bore.

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  397+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 [quote]   ---

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: 2-stroke oil

It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for Rotax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at 140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far, so good

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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: 2-stroke oil

Marco C Where do you get AV2. I see CPS has it. Seems like thats a long way to ship it. But C getting direct to the house is convient.

 do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL

   

 Date: Tue C 30 Sep 2008 06:57:47 -0700

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: 2-stroke oil

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

     It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for Rotax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at 140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far C so good.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1



--- On Mon C 9/29/08 C Pat Reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Pat Reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com>

Subject: 2-stroke oil

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday C September 29 C 2008 C 6:45 PM



     Kitfoxers C I know the archives are full of opinoins on oils. The 582 grey head I purchased used was sold to me with 100 hrs as time on it. I pulled the exhaust off C looked in the ports and can't believe the cross hatch pattern in the bore. To me it looks as if the engine was never even broken in. The previous owner was in California anfd said he used AV2 oil. Over the last 30 years I have used AMS Oil in every type of 2 stroke engine application you can name. I swear by it. (Dave I know that the petro based oils give better corrosion resistance in humid conditions and I am a little afraid of the synthetic in for my plane as I know my hanger is not heated and condensationis a big problem. Now C after looking at my pristene bores after 100 hrs with AV2 I think I would be remiss not to use AV2. What do you guys think of AV2?

  

 do not archive

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


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tfox-List

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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



[b]

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: 2-stroke oil

That's where I get it Pat. Awhile back, someone on this list who had switched engines offered up a case of quarts which I purchased. I'm down to 2 or 3 now so I'll be going back to CPS for more soon.

 

Marco Menezes N99KX

Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1

 

do not archive



--- On Tue, 9/30/08, patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



From: patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com>

Subject: RE: 2-stroke oil

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 10:13 AM





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Marco, Where do you get AV2. I see CPS has it. Seems like thats a long way to ship it. But, getting direct to the house is convient.

do not archive

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL



Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:57:47 -0700

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: 2-stroke oil

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for Rotax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at 140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far, so good

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mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: 2-stroke oil

Oh, gosh. Here I go. . . I promised myself I’d never discuss 2-cycle oil again in my life.   

After the first 100 hours on my 532 and using AV-2 the whole time, I had to replace the rings because they’d gotten stuck in the ring grooves. I was told synthetics do this to rings. They broke when I tried to take them out. Stuck rings cause piston blowby which causes bad things happen. The cylinder crosshatch was still visible.   

After the second 100 hours and using Penzoil 2-cycle oil the whole time, the rings were free and floating inside the ring groves. The crosshatch was still just as visible as after the first 100 hours.   

This is just one data-point. I’m not drawing any conclusions.   

Mike Perkins  

      [quote][b]

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paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: 2-stroke oil

On Tue, September 30, 2008 10:05 am, Perkins, Mike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Oh, gosh. Here I go. . . I promised myself I'd never discuss 2-cycle oil

 again in my life.



 After the first 100 hours on my 532 and using AV-2 the whole time, I had

 to replace the rings because they'd gotten stuck in the ring grooves. I

 was told synthetics do this to rings. They broke when I tried to take

 them out. Stuck rings cause piston blowby which causes bad things

 happen. The cylinder crosshatch was still visible.



 After the second 100 hours and using Penzoil 2-cycle oil the whole time,

 the rings were free and floating inside the ring groves. The crosshatch

 was still just as visible as after the first 100 hours.



 This is just one data-point. I'm not drawing any conclusions.


	


About 12 years ago, I did substantial research on engine oils, with the primary

concern being compatibility with usage with high lead content gasoline such as 100 LL

in 4 stroke engines, specifically for the 914. I published all the results of that

research on the KF list. During the course of that research I discovered that the

single most important factor for two stroke mixed or injected oil was ash content. Ash

will accumulate on top of the top piston ring and cause overheating which leads to

stuck rings, relaxed rings and in some cases seizure even when the mixture is

sufficiently rich.



So, when selecting a two stroke engine oil, getting one with near zero or zero ash

content is what to look for. That requirement is what precludes use of most API graded

engine oils for two stroke usage.



I'm not sure if Don Pearsall's archives of the early KF List mail is still around but

I probably have it backed up somewhere.



-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

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mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: 2-stroke oil

Hi Paul,   

Thanks for responding. Not to inundate you with Penzoil propaganda, but here are two pieces on 2-cycle oil I’d archived. You may have seen them before.   

http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/penaircool2c.html     http://www.powerchutes.com/oil.pdf   

I’ve used this oil from 100 hours to 325 hours in my 532 and don’t have any problems. (The first 100 engine hours were with AV-2.)  

Mike Perkins  

   

   

      [quote][b]

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paul(at)eucleides.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: 2-stroke oil

On Wed, October 1, 2008 9:52 am, Perkins, Mike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Paul,



 Thanks for responding. Not to inundate you with Penzoil propaganda, but

 here are two pieces on 2-cycle oil I'd archived. You may have seen them

 before.



This is the blue code oil in the Lockwood test.
	


<http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/penaircool2c.html>



This is the Lockwood test.

<http://www.powerchutes.com/oil.pdf>



It would seem that the red code (Outboard 2 stroke Oil) would also be a good choice.

The ashfree formulation is really the key here.



They do say "in real world" usage where mixtures run leaner, that the synthetic would

score higher than in their tests. However, it is clear from the pictures, I wouldn't

want to use that or the conventional mineral oil (purple code) or the synthetic

(yellow code).



In my previous research, the tech information I found was mostly from tests using

Castrol. I recall that their interest was finding the best oil for the RAVE system on

the Rotax 618 and that ash deposits above the top piston land were a leading cause of

overheating and seizure. I can't find that article but in those tests, I think it was

the synthetic from Castrol that was chosen. My focus was on Synthetics for use in the

Rotax 914 and what would happen if you had to use some 100 LL. Mobil 1 was definitely

ruled out even for a small amount of 100 LL use. Castrol Syntec is the oil I favored

of the ones tested and available in the US.



The Pennzoil information you found would probably turn me to the "blue coded" or

Aircooled two stroke oil you cite. I wouldn't want to use the synthetic for fear of

results like theirs.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've used this oil from 100 hours to 325 hours in my 532 and don't have

 any problems. (The first 100 engine hours were with AV-2.)


	


Lockwood says to examine the piston crowns and rings every 50 hours for deposits

sticking. Have you done that too?



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike Perkins


	




-- 

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

PAF Consulting Engineers

Office 425.440.9505

Cell 425.241.1618

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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