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Airport Attitudes
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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

Kolb Friends -



I encountered a little incident at my home one evening this week that

made me realize that there are STILL people out there in charge of

airports who regard ultralights and other very light aircraft as nothing

more than an annoying nuisance.  Which is sad.



I was flying right about at sunset - beautifully smooth air and

spectacular fall colors in the foothills.  Near the end of my flight, I

saw a powered parachute flying near the airport, so I swooped in closer

to get a better look.  I recognized him - this guy flies from his own

property a couple of miles from our airport, and I often see him flying

at sunset when the air is smooth.  He and I recognize each other's

aircraft, as we are often in the same local airspace together with the

same flying goals in common: To enjoy the simple pleasures of low-cost

recreational flying.   (p.s. - that's one of the things I love about my

Kolb - I can slow down to *almost* fly in formation with a powered

parachute.  Almost.)



After I landed and pulled up to the hangar, I got out of my Kolb, and

saw the parachute guy flying toward me.  He was pretty much flying right

down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I

was parked.  I waved at him, and he waved back.  I could see the smile

on his face as he was waving.



Moments later, the airport manager drove up to me and asked, "Do you

know that idiot?  His type are not welcome here."  I was not about to

narc on a fellow recreational pilot, especially if he wasn't doing

anything wrong or unsafe.  I just said no.  (I'm certain I would be

viewed by our airport manager as one of those "dangerous" ultralights if

my Kolb were not N-numbered.)



So I guess the point of this message is, fly safely, and obey the rules.

There are still people in charge of airports who do not wish us to be

part of the mix, and will do what they can to have us thrown off the

airport.



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul, "Magic Bike"

Cedar Crest, NM

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

He was pretty much flying right

down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I

was parked.  I waved at him, and he waved back.>>



What an idiot.  Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is 

stupid enough but to fly down the runway......

Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?



It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name, 

and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land 

behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50 

feet over the runway?.  What a twit.



Pat

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  He was pretty much flying right

down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I

was parked.  I waved at him, and he waved back.>>



What an idiot.  Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is 

stupid enough but to fly down the runway......

Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?



It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name, 

and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land 

behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50 

feet over the runway?.  What a twit.



Pat 	




Most of us were ultralight pilots at one time and some still are. Being an ultralight pilot in no way exempts anyone from the rules. The problem arises when ultralight pilots refuse to learn or don't understand airport rules. Some of them just don't know how dangerous an airport can be if a large aircraft doesn't see them when they aren’t expecting an ultralight to be there. At the private field I fly from, there are powered parachutes that I have to watch out for. Since I fly many times faster, I find myself not seeing them until they are only 500' away. This can be downright dangerous. Even if they are obeying the rules, the fact that we are flying much faster makes it dangerous. Then during landing, we have to land beside the collapsed chutes on the runway.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

To paraphrase an old saying, "there is none so stupid as him/her who will not learn." It is so easy to get airport information these days there simply is no excuse, but still there are those who choose to remain ignorant. 

 Even if you don't have an AFD for your area, and can't use a computer to access Avweb or any of the similar info sources, there is still the tried and true method of coming over the airport at 500 feet above pattern altitude, check the windsock and see if there is any marker indicating that the pattern is anything other than a standard left hander and then knowing the location of the downwind leg doing a descending  tear drop turn to enter the pattern on a 45 to the center of the field. Works every time. 

 Even when I enter the local field where the business aircraft fly, I never get yelled at or treated unkindly even though I can tell you from experience that Lear Jets and Trikes do not mix well. If you follow this simple procedure, act as though you are invisible, and give right of way to everything even when you don't have to, you'll most likely get a friendly reception. But first you have to pull your head out, get it up and locked and use it for something other that just keeping the rain out of your neck.

 As for the bags, well, as my friend Mike once told me, "they're an illustration why God never created aerial jelly fish".

Rick

do not archive

"Airframes, don't leave Earth without them"

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Ralph B <ul15rhb(at)juno.com (ul15rhb(at)juno.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph B" <ul15rhb(at)juno.com (ul15rhb(at)juno.com)>

 pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote:

 > He was pretty much flying right

 > down the runway, about 50' high, then turned to fly right over where I

 > was parked.  I waved at him, and he waved back.>>

 >

 > What an idiot.  Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is

 > stupid enough but to fly down the runway......

 > Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?

 >

 > It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name,

 > and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land

 > behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 50

 > feet over the runway?.  What a twit.

 >

 > Pat

 Most of us were ultralight pilots at one time and some still are. Being an ultralight pilot in no way exempts anyone from the rules. The problem arises when ultralight pilots refuse to learn or don't understand airport rules. Some of them just don't know how dangerous an airport can be if a large aircraft doesn't see them when they aren't expecting an ultralight to be there. At the private field I fly from, there are powered parachutes that I have to watch out for. Since I fly many times faster, I find myself not seeing them until they are only 500' away. This can be downright dangerous. Even if they are obeying the rules, the fact that we are flying much faster makes it dangerous. Then during landing, we have to land beside the collapsed chutes on the runway.

 Ralph

 --------

 Ralph B

 Original Firestar 447

 N91493 E-AB

 21 years flying it

 Kolbra 912UL

 N20386

 0 years flying it

 Read this topic online here:

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7431#207431]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7431#207431[/url]

 [b]

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes

This is from a local guy, He is talking about cook county GA Adel:



Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.



I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)



I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the manager a leg to stand on.



Jim Dees

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot 

refuse entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb



At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



This is from a local guy:



Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he 

was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his 

book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days 

how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.



I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks 

when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook 

County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will 

ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I 

am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like 

bugs bunny does)



I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and 

emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to 

not give the manager a leg to stand on.



Jim Dees





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they can not 

deny you from using the airport.

FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied access to the 

airport.

--------------------------------------------------

From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot refuse 

 entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb



 At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:

>

>

>This is from a local guy:

>

>Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was 

>conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and 

>did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did 

>this or that that gave us a bad name.

>

>I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when 

>I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on 

>their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with 

>the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there 

>as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)

>

>I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize 

>safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the 

>manager a leg to stand on.

>

>Jim Dees

>

>

>Read this topic online here:

>

>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523

>

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

ask that manager if he will also turn away sport pilots in J3s,  

aeroncas, taylorcraft, etc.....

BB

On 6, Oct 2008, at 9:37 AM, <smlplanet(at)msn.com> <smlplanet(at)msn.com>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they  

 can not deny you from using the airport.

 FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied  

 access to the airport.

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

 Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46

 To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes



> 

>

> My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot  

> refuse entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb

>

> At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:

>> 

>> <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

>>

>> This is from a local guy:

>>

>> Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far  

>> he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots  

>> in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the  

>> old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.

>>

>> I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few  

>> weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming  

>> to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way"  

>> guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not  

>> like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him  

>> like me (like bugs bunny does)

>>

>> I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and  

>> emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to  

>> not give the manager a leg to stand on.

>>

>> Jim Dees

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

--------------------------------------------------

From: <smlplanet(at)msn.com>

Sent: 2008-10-06 09:37

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If I remember correctly if they receive any government funding they can 

 not deny you from using the airport.

 FAA has a form which can be filed with them if you are denied access to 

 the airport.

 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "herb" <herbgh(at)nctc.com>

 Sent: 2008-10-06 08:46

 To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Re: Airport Attitudes



> 

>

> My understanding is that if he receives public funds...he cannot refuse 

> entry or service to any airplane above an Ultra Light...Herb

>

> At 07:23 AM 10/6/2008, you wrote:

>>

>>

>>This is from a local guy:

>>

>>Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was 

>>conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and 

>>did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did 

>>this or that that gave us a bad name.

>>

>>I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when 

>>I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on 

>>their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with 

>>the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there 

>>as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)

>>

>>I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize 

>>safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the 

>>manager a leg to stand on.

>>

>>Jim Dees

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>Read this topic online here:

>>

>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 7523#207523

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

<< He was pretty much flying right down the runway, about 50' high, then

turned ...>>



pj.ladd wrote: << What an idiot.  Flying in the immediate vicinity of an

airfield circuit is stupid enough but to fly down the runway...... Does

this guy think he is the only person in the air? Pat >>



Pat -



You may not be accustomed to some of the flying habits that are allowed

in the US, so I can understand your alarm.



What the powered parachute guy did was, essentially, a low approach over

the runway.  We do that all the time - nothing unsafe or illegal about

it.  He did had a radio, and announced on UNICOM his intentions.  Many

pilots seek out the less busy airfields (like where my Kolb is parked)

to practice landings, touch and go's, and/or low approaches.  The sparse

traffic at these country airports make for ideal practice in the

circuit.



Especially because often, you ARE the only one in the air, as it was the

this case.  I truly believe he would have done this if there had been

other traffic in the pattern, knowing that the disparity of speeds

between his 'chute and all the other "regular" aircraft might cause a

problem.  He was the only aircraft still in the pattern, after I had

landed.



Aren't pilots allowed to stay in the pattern and do touch and go's at

small airports in the UK?



Dennis K.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

At 06:05 AM 10/4/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  What an idiot.  Flying in the immediate vicinity of an airfield circuit is 

stupid enough but to fly down the runway......

Does this guy think he is the only person in the air?



It is selfish people like this that get light aircraft flying a bad name, 

and cause accidents. Would he have heard or seen someone trying to land 

behind him. Would the other pilot have been expecting someone dangling at 

50 feet over the runway?.  What a twit.


	


Not necessarily.  If he was flying the traffic pattern for a low approach, 

no problem there if the airport doesn't have a lot of fast traffic.



Most of my own PPG flying has been from an active GA airport.  In the PPG's 

we keep aware of and avoid the GA traffic pattern, and never had any trouble.



-Dana

--

  Can a Cessna 150 truly "slip the surly bonds of Earth"?

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

Not necessarily.  If he was flying the traffic pattern for a low approach, 

\..



\hi,

\What is it with these guys?. The whole point of having a motorised 

parachute is that you do not have to operate from an airfield. You can take 

off and land into any small pasture. I thought that was one of the main 

attractions of the sport,.



Most of the people I know do not operate their microlights, ultrlights 

whatever from airfields they fly from farm strips  etc with the object of 

staying away from controlled airspace, landing patterns etc . How much more 

so the paramotor brigade who dont even need a large field.



They may have the right to fly there but why should they want to.? If they 

want a cup of coffee from ther clubhouse they can land on the door step with 

out messing up a landing pattern of aircraft going considerable faster than 

they ar



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

Aren't pilots allowed to stay in the pattern and do touch and go's at

small airports in the UK?>>



Hi Dennis,



yeah, sure. What we dont have, or more accurately not until a couple of 

months ago is anything like your Unicom. I suspect also that you have many 

more less used airfields than we do.

Unless you landed at a farm or private strip you would probably find 

something going on.



Even at a small field I would imaging that you would announce, blind, that 

you were doing touch and goes.

Why anyone with a parachute needs to practice landings at an airfiled is 

beyond me. Surely that is the whole point of paramotoring, that you are 

completely independent of all ground facilities. If yyou want to land at an 

airfield to get a coffee there is no need to do fly a full pattern surely. 

Round the elm tree and over the hedge I would have thought a much better 

proposition,.



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

At 05:06 PM 10/7/2008, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I suspect also that you have many more less used airfields than we do.

Unless you landed at a farm or private strip you would probably find 

something going on.



...Surely that is the whole point of paramotoring, that you are completely 

independent of all ground facilities. If yyou want to land at an airfield 

to get a coffee there is no need to do fly a full pattern surely. Round 

the elm tree and over the hedge I would have thought a much better 

proposition,.


	


Depends on where you are, and of course there's a lot of variety in the 

U.S.  In Connecticut where I live, there aren't that many farms any more, 

it's mostly forest, and the out of control lawyers means most of the 

remaining farmers aren't eager to allow what he perceives as a bunch of 

nuts with fans strapped to their butts use his fields... so we look to the 

airports.  Farther west, things are different.



Even at the airports, some ultralight friendly airports want UL's to use 

the standard traffic pattern, while others have a special pattern for 

UL's.  A PPG, of course, is so much slower that you just avoid the pattern 

completely.  Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance 

from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas 

at ANY altitude), so we can approach the airport at 200' altitude or 

whatever seems reasonable.



-Dana



do not archive

--

  Access denied--nah nah na nah nah!

N111KX (Kip)

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 96
Location: Atlanta, GA

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Airport Attitudes

I guess the situation in Adel has not gotten better since 2003. I stopped in there during my trip back from Sun n Fun as it was about to pour down rain. Rather than get all of my equipment soaked I rolled my Firestar into a hangar that did not even have a door. Within 10 minutes the sun was shining so I rolled it out. Mr Happy came up and said "the owner of that hangar would not like you in there". I told him that if a pilot wanted my hangar all night he could have it if I was out of town. He turned and walked away. I have been waiting for 5 year to take a Learjet in there and order up 500 gallons and then remind him of our first meeting and cancel the order.

Grass roots airport at it's worst...



 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  This is from a local guy, He is talking about cook county GA Adel:



Flew into Cook County air port and was told by the manager as far he was conserend we sport pilot folk were just ultralight pilots in his book and did not want us there. He then went on about the old days how they did this or that that gave us a bad name.



I was very polite bit my toung real hard and told him in a few weeks when I got my SPORT PILOT CFI my students would be comming to cook County on their cross country flights. He said "No way" guess I will ride over with the first few dozen or so. He may not like me but I am going to be there as much as I can and make him like me (like bugs bunny does)



I plan to leave a great impression with the local pilots and emphasize safe operations at their airport to students. I plan to not give the manager a leg to stand on.



Jim Dees

_________________
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

At 06:54 PM 10/7/08 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



completely.  Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance 

from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas 

at ANY altitude), so we can approach the airport at 200' altitude or 

whatever seems reasonable.




	


Dana



Are you sure about this?  I remember reading that UL pilots are supposed to 

obey all of the rules for airmen.  And one of those rules, if I remember 

correctly, states that you must remain 750 feet from everything except when 

landing or taking off.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Airport Attitudes

At 10:15 PM 10/7/2008, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Are you sure about this?  I remember reading that UL pilots are supposed to

obey all of the rules for airmen.  And one of those rules, if I remember

correctly, states that you must remain 750 feet from everything except when

landing or taking off.


	


Quite sure.  Ultralights in the U.S. are solely governed by Part 103, which 

nowhere lists a minimum altitude or distance.



For that matter, in Part 91 which governs nearly all other aircraft, 

nowhere is a distance of 750'; it's 500' (1000' over congested areas).



Most other countries, of course, have much more restrictive rules.



-Dana

--

  The man who would be fully employed should procure a ship or a woman, for 

no two things produce more trouble" - Plautus 254-184 B.C.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

Unlike in the UK, there is no minimum altitude or distance

 	  Quote: 	
		  from people for ultralights (save that you can't fly over congested areas

at ANY altitude), >.


	


Hi Dana,

i am not up on your rules of course but in the UK ultralights have always 

been governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else except for the rule 

about flying over congested area beacause of their perceived unreliability.. 

Not only perceived but real.



As reliabilty has improved that rule has been rescinded and we can now fly 

over towns etc.



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

At 06:57 AM 10/8/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  i am not up on your rules of course but in the UK ultralights have always 

been governed by exactly the same rules as everyone else except for the 

rule about flying over congested area beacause of their perceived 

unreliability.. Not only perceived but real.



As reliabilty has improved that rule has been rescinded and we can now fly 

over towns etc.


	


Over here the only rules that true ultralights have to follow are in the 

two page Part 103 regulations.  None of the other general operating rules 

apply.  No pilot or aircraft certification, no inspections, no minimum 

altitude... and no passengers and limited performance.  The three biggest 

restrictions people complain about are the "no flying over congested 

areas", the 254# max weight, and the 5 gallon fuel limit, but the thought 

is that a rule as unrestrictive as Part 103 would never be passed today... 

if they opened it up for revision we almost certainly wouldn't like the result.



-Dana



do not archive

--

  Do YOU trust a government that won't obey it's OWN LAWS?

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Airport Attitudes

Even at the airports, some ultralight friendly airports want UL's to use

the standard traffic pattern,>>



Hi Dana,



for a UL I would expect that but not powered chutes which after all was what 

started this.



Pat

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