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Redundant Fuel Pumps

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Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

"pj.ladd" chides: << You can get too hung up on all the little things

that can go wrong until you have redundancy built in all over the place.

Where are you going to stop? All this fuss a few weeks ago about fitting

an extra fuel pump. What for? Pat >>



Pat -



I am one of those whom you speak of who gets all hung up!



In 1992, I was forced to make an emergency off-airport landing in my

Tri-Pacer because of vapor lock in the fuel line.  I was trying to climb

over a mountain range in the middle of a hot summer in Arizona, and

things got so hot in the engine area that bubbles began to form in the

fuel line, causing the engine RPM to begin surging up and down (mostly

down).  The Tri-Pacer has no fuel pump - it relies on gravity feed from

the wing tanks.  I firmly believe that, had a fuel pump of any kind been

installed, that Lycoming engine would have kept running.



So now, I'm making up for it by having TWO fuel pumps in my Mark-3 - the

mechanical pump on the 912, and a Facet electrical pump.  Just because I

can!  (Since I built it.)



Call me chicken.



Dennis Kirby

New Mexico

Do not archive

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:28 pm Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

Dennis:

  

 Nothing chicken about being prepared.

  

 I have a redundant fuel pump system in my MKIII.   Never had to use it, but it is there should I need it.

  

 I also did not have to ask permission to design and  install the system in the airplane I built.

  

 john h The flying chicken hauck (hawk)

 mkIII

 [quote]    

Call me chicken.



Dennis    Kirby

 

[b]

_________________
do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:57 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

Call me chicken.>>



Hi Dennis,



wouldn`t drean of it.  Thats what I call `learning from experience` or `once 

bitten twice shy` or something like that. If I was flying a Cessna in the 

mountains I would have plenty of back ups



I think to a great extent it is the sort of country we fly over.  Some of 

the great country you guys have with miles of trees and lakes with nowhere 

to land or almost uninhabited  areas really call for maximum safety, 

redundancy etc. We just don`t have them. There are parts of Wales or 

Scotland that I wouldn`t fly over without at least letting someone know 

where I was and when I was expected at my destination but in general over 

here you would be very unlucky to go down with no one seeing you. Usually 

there is somewhere to put a plane down even if it is too small to fly out 

again. Engine outs in a microlight are usually non events anyhow. Even if it 

does put the pilots adrenelin level up The amount of stored energy involved 

in such a lightweight machine is low and even if you hit a hedge there is a 

good chance you will walk away. Even if you had to walk out for help it is 

unlikely to be more than a couple of miles.

I wasn`t really advocating a total disregard for safety and good 

maintenance. If you went down that route here you would get no further than 

your next C of A inspection because your inspector wouldn`t sign the plane 

out.

Some pilots however, we all have them, just cannot resist putting on all the 

gadgets possible. I was talking to a microlight pilot the other day and he 

was discussing the relative merits of Artificial Horizons because he 

intended to fit one.  Microlights here are only allowed to fly VFR so what 

did he need one for? He might suddenly be enveloped in cloud? Alright, it 

could happen but look at the probabilities.



Cheers



Pat

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

Pat -



I couldn't agree with you more on both counts: 1) redundancy can be crucial if the terrain you're flying over is unforgiving, and 2) some pilots just want all the heavy metal stuff while I go "Huh?"   But if they can afford it and enjoy it - well, that's fine.  A friend of mine who flies a Thundergull put an automatic pilot in it.  I don't get it, but he enjoys it. I learned to fly in a Quicksilver and my instructor was adamant that I not rely on instruments.  All he had on the bird was an airspeed indicator. Personally, I feel I need my CHT and EGT, as well as my altimeter and RPM indicator. And I love my Stratomaster, which gives me fuel burn, although I could easily do without it.AND my redundant electric pump gives me great comfort.  As they say "Different strokes for different folks!"



Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, Oregon



www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"

                      Helen Keller



"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Fri, 10/17/08, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

 Subject: Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, October 17, 2008, 4:56 AM

 

 <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

 

 Call me chicken.>>

 

 Hi Dennis,

 

 wouldn`t drean of it.  Thats what I call `learning from

 experience` or `once 

 bitten twice shy` or something like that. If I was flying a

 Cessna in the 

 mountains I would have plenty of back ups

 

 I think to a great extent it is the sort of country we fly

 over.  Some of 

 the great country you guys have with miles of trees and

 lakes with nowhere 

 to land or almost uninhabited  areas really call for

 maximum safety, 

 redundancy etc. We just don`t have them. There are parts of

 Wales or 

 Scotland that I wouldn`t fly over without at least letting

 someone know 

 where I was and when I was expected at my destination but

 in general over 

 here you would be very unlucky to go down with no one

 seeing you. Usually 

 there is somewhere to put a plane down even if it is too

 small to fly out 

 again. Engine outs in a microlight are usually non events

 anyhow. Even if it 

 does put the pilots adrenelin level up The amount of stored

 energy involved 

 in such a lightweight machine is low and even if you hit a

 hedge there is a 

 good chance you will walk away. Even if you had to walk out

 for help it is 

 unlikely to be more than a couple of miles.

 I wasn`t really advocating a total disregard for safety and

 good 

 maintenance. If you went down that route here you would get

 no further than 

 your next C of A inspection because your inspector wouldn`t

 sign the plane 

 out.

 Some pilots however, we all have them, just cannot resist

 putting on all the 

 gadgets possible. I was talking to a microlight pilot the

 other day and he 

 was discussing the relative merits of Artificial Horizons

 because he 

 intended to fit one.  Microlights here are only allowed to

 fly VFR so what 

 did he need one for? He might suddenly be enveloped in

 cloud? Alright, it 

 could happen but look at the probabilities.

 

 Cheers

 

 Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

I learned to fly in a Quicksilver and my instructor was adamant that I not 

rely on instruments.  >>



Hi Arty,

I started in gliders and I remember that after 6 or 7 flights the instructor 

threw his gloves over the ASI and altimeter and said`"Look out of the 

cockpit and listen"



For my microlight License I soloed in a Quicksilver. There was nothing even 

to keep lined up with the horizon. I think there was a telltale piece of 

string to show slip and skid and an ASI.



Sure some people want all the goodies and are happier cutting holes and 

designing a new control panel than flying.



Cheers



Pat

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

Arty/Pat



My Private Pilot training wet 180 degrees the other way. I was trained to 

trust the instruments because your seat of the pants will mislead you. 

Kennedy's mishap is a good example. Part of my flight test for PP yes VFR 

was to prove that I could fly on instruments. They would have me close my 

eyes and try to get me disoriented and hand the controls back in a unusual 

attitude while wearing a instrument only hood.



Pilot training and common aircraft building practices have come a long way 

by trial and error. The ultralight instructors that basically taught 

themselves to fly and some ultralight/experimental builders have short 

changed themselves by not learning from the mistakes of the past.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

At 02:07 PM 10/17/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  My Private Pilot training wet 180 degrees the other way. I was trained to 

trust the instruments because your seat of the pants will mislead you. 

Kennedy's mishap is a good example. Part of my flight test for PP yes VFR 

was to prove that I could fly on instruments. They would have me close my 

eyes and try to get me disoriented and hand the controls back in a unusual 

attitude while wearing a instrument only hood.


	


Trust the instruments, yes, especially in IFR conditions... but your 

training should also have taught you to fly the airplane in VFR conditions 

WITHOUT needing the instruments.  Instruments do fail.



-Dana

--

  The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

.Hi Rick.

very interesting.  Some training , even self training is useful. Just get 

plenty of height and sniff around the edge of a LITTLE cloud  is fun and 

couldn`t do much harm, but it is not part of the training syllabus for 

ultralights.

You may be different but here the rule is ONLY VFR  and Aerobatics and 

intentional spins are prohibited. Seems sense, after all our machines are 

built down to a weight not up to a standard. In fact all microlights here 

carry a sticker stating that `This aircraft is not constructed to a 

internationally recognised standard`



<< I was trained to trust the instruments because your seat of the pants 

will mislead you. >>



They will certainly mislead you if you can`t see the horizon



<<. They would have me close my eyes and try to get me disoriented and hand 

the controls back in a unusual attitude while wearing a instrument only 

hood.>>



All good fun but certainly not a training requirement here. At least not for 

ultralights. You may well be given some rudimentary instruction for a full 

PPL.but  it would be just to give you some experience, not a requirement.We 

have an odd sort of `get you home` blind flying certificate in the UK which 

no one else in Europe has.It gives you enough basics to stop you falling out 

of the sky if you suddenly get caught out, bad weather, low cloud etc. Its a 

halfway house between VFR and a full blind flying qualification. It has 

saved a number of lives over the years when mainly day time fliers have got 

themselves into trouble. We are fighting hard to retain it but it looks as 

though it may disappear in the Europewide reorganisation of flying  which is 

taking place at the moment



.<< The ultralight instructors that basically taught themselves to fly >>

WOW!  You mean thast you have uncertified flying instructors? Surely not.



Cheers



Pat

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Redundant Fuel Pumps

A Kolb MK III is a big enough airplane, that vapor lock and an engine failure could get you seriously hurt just about anywhere on this planet.  Dennis had vapor lock with AV Gas being gravity fed, you have MUCH GREATER risk of vapor lock pulling auto fuel up to an engine like we do in Kolbs.  Having an electric fuel pump at or below the level of the fuel is a huge safety advantage.   The electric fuel pump is cheap, small, and light, and very appropriate for small planes like our Kolbs.   



Sorry, but this just does not even compare to putting an autopilot or some other exotic equipment on an ultralight.  A facet pump is a small, cheap, basic safety item to keep fuel going to your engine at all times.  Accident and near accident reports make it very clear that having a small fuel pump can make a small plane a lot safer.  If anyone is wondering, look at the EAA database on how many engine failures are caused by the fuel system and not the engine, the number will shock you.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

At 06:15 AM 10/18/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  .<< The ultralight instructors that basically taught themselves to fly >>

WOW!  You mean thast you have uncertified flying instructors? Surely not.


	


Well, remember, for a "true" ultralight here, there is NO requirement for 

ANY training.  Of course we all know that anybody who trains himself has a 

fool for an instructor, but in the early days when all ultralights were 

single seat, there was a lot of self training or ground supervised "crow 

hops"... and a lot of accidents.  The creation of the BFI program helped a 

LOT, but that's history now.  Loggable training (i.e. hours counting toward 

any certificate or rating) requires a certified flight instructor, but 

there's nothing to prevent a guy with just a Sport Pilot certificate from 

informally teaching his buddy to fly in his 2-seat LSA, then the student 

goes ahead and solos in a single seat ultralight with no "official" training.



-Dana

--

  Be Politically Incorrect:  Support the Constitution!

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

guy with just a Sport Pilot certificate from

informally teaching his buddy to fly in his 2-seat LSA, then the student

goes ahead and solos in a single seat ultralight with no "official" 

training.>>



Jeez,



A good job that unless you pull it up a violent stall 30 feet up that our 

low energy machines tend to disintegrate round you  and you can walk away 

with a few minor breakages



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: Redundant Fuel Pumps

At 12:31 PM 10/19/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  guy with just a Sport Pilot certificate from

informally teaching his buddy to fly in his 2-seat LSA, then the student

goes ahead and solos in a single seat ultralight with no "official" 

training.>>



Jeez,



A good job that unless you pull it up a violent stall 30 feet up that our 

low energy machines tend to disintegrate round you  and you can walk away 

with a few minor breakages


	


Better than no training at all!  And it can be OK if the aircraft are 

similar, e.g. teaching in an experimental 2 seat Firestar, then the student 

solos his Firefly, or a 2 seat LSA Quicksilver, then the student solos a 

single seat ultralight Quicksilver.



-Dana

--

  Place a half full glass of water before a pessimist, optimist and an 

engineer:



The pessimist says the glass is half empty.

The optimist says the glass if half full.

The engineer says the glass is too large.

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