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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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 Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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I just wanted to follow up as I said I'd post more information
after today. I worked with Bill from NavWorx today in getting
the NavWorx ADS-B system hooked up to the Chelton system. I
had prepared a harness in advance, that could take the place
of one of my existing interfaces. As you know, ADS-B can
provide both traffic and WX. The Chelton has a config
screen for weather and traffic and currently my system was
set up to receive traffic from the GTX-330 and Weather
from WSI. I turned them both to ADS-B, we fired up the
transceiver on at OSH, and went for a flight.
I can now report that ADS-B weather displays, with VERY fast
update rates, on the Chelton system, and does a great job.
On the flight, we got to check out the traffic portion also,
flying a loop around Appleton and down. Traffic was visible
and it had a very fast update speed on the screens...you
could watch the traffic slide across the Chelton's and it
was updated faster than the GTX-330 traffic.
There was only 2 oddities in the whole thing, one of them
done on purpose, and one of them something that NavWorx will
now refine a little more. The first is that the unit that
we were using was not programmed to filter traffic based
on distance or altitude away...thus, we could actually
receive traffic targets that were even 100nm away! This
is a setting that they can program, so you have traffic
available at whatever range or altitude difference that you
want, and this one was left open to all traffic. The
oddity that we saw was that during turns, we detected our
own airplane as traffic, which as I understand it is
due to the inaccuracy of the radar station we were in.
We would get a Mode-S traffic "hit" that would sometimes
show up .25-.3 miles from our plane. Apparently this is
an effect caused by my having a mode-S transponder,
in that both the ADS-B and Mode-S target are in the
same spot, but with radar inaccuracies, they may not
be identically placed. The receiver is supposed to have
an algorithm that hides one of the hits if they're so
close in position and altitude that they must be the
same plane, so that algorithm needs to be modified
slightly (just a simple software update for NavWorx) to
hide them just a little further separated than it is
now. I was very interested to see that for Wx, the
single ground-based station basically covers way outside
the entire state of Wisconsin, so with ADS-B weather,
my entire home state would have coverage. That is
not to say I'd be able to receive the ground station,
but I'd see the Nexrad for the whole state, plus more,
when I am in ADS-B coverage. Now they just have to get
the ADS-B system country wide to be deployed.
So, not only does it appear that NavWorx has a great
little system for WAY WAY less than Garmin, but it
works fine with Cheltons already existing ADS-B interfacing.
It should also work fine for others like GRT and
Advanced Flight once they bring their programming
for it to completion.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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Tim,
Very cool! Are you using the portable PADS600 or the fixed ADS600? IF the ADS600, what do you have for antenna placement and can you confirm that this is a "receive only" system?
William
http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
------
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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For this test it was just the PADS600 portable. The ADS600
will give you the same basic thing, but you'll install a
blade style DME antenna, and it will accept external GPS
feeds. The one today had built-in GPS and a small stick
antenna. For most people who are building planes, we'll
want the fixed unit, because it will give better signal
and performance.
No, this is not a "receive only" system....it's the whole
works, transmit and receive. Cool stuff, that's for sure.
I'll do a quick write-up with photos when I can sit down
and put it together.
One other thing.....since Garmin does all their stuff using
proprietary interfaces, this ADS-B isn't going to be an
option on some Garmin products....they shoot themselves
in the foot by not wanting to use more "open" interface
specs. So the experimental and non-garmin world has a
lot of good cost savings benefit by a product like this.
I do think that it will feed some of the radios like
the 430/530/480 though...but we didn't talk much about that,
so I'm not sure.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
[quote]
<wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
Tim,
Very cool! Are you using the portable PADS600 or the fixed ADS600?
IF the ADS600, what do you have for antenna placement and can you
confirm that this is a "receive only" system?
William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
------
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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Just FYI, I did get some photos posted. Nothing earth shattering,
but at least you can see some of it.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20081025/index.html
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]
For this test it was just the PADS600 portable. The ADS600
will give you the same basic thing, but you'll install a
blade style DME antenna, and it will accept external GPS
feeds. The one today had built-in GPS and a small stick
antenna. For most people who are building planes, we'll
want the fixed unit, because it will give better signal
and performance.
No, this is not a "receive only" system....it's the whole
works, transmit and receive. Cool stuff, that's for sure.
I'll do a quick write-up with photos when I can sit down
and put it together.
One other thing.....since Garmin does all their stuff using
proprietary interfaces, this ADS-B isn't going to be an
option on some Garmin products....they shoot themselves
in the foot by not wanting to use more "open" interface
specs. So the experimental and non-garmin world has a
lot of good cost savings benefit by a product like this.
I do think that it will feed some of the radios like
the 430/530/480 though...but we didn't talk much about that,
so I'm not sure.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
>
> <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
>
> Tim,
>
> Very cool! Are you using the portable PADS600 or the fixed ADS600?
> IF the ADS600, what do you have for antenna placement and can you
> confirm that this is a "receive only" system?
>
> William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
>
> ------
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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Tim, your post is excellent on ADS-B. The marketplace needs some viable
competition.
One area not addressed is the 1090ES standard. My sources at Garmin are
giving only a cursory tease on the need for builders to consider antenna
placement, antenna selection and need for the Garmin 330ES which is not
yet released. You have a good footnote on the 1090mHz ES but it leaves
a gap in the sources for Extended Squitter (ES).
Oregon was one of the ADS-B pioneers and home of Garmin's transponder
and EFIS divisions. No one wants to feed the gorilla.
Could you keep your ears open and fill us in when appropriate?
Alternative selections and extended life of competitive avionics
components is valued input.
John Cox
--
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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My understanding is that the navworx box is UAT only. In the US, the FAA will support both 1090ES and UAT. 1090ES will be primarily for 24,000 feet and above while UAT will be below 24,000. UAT has a number of advantages and my guess is that easily outdistance 1090ES.
http://navworx.com/docs/ADSBSlides.pdf
William
http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
------
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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I agree, I don't think there is any intention to go the
1090ES route on their products. And personally,
I've heard the same about it being high-altitude primarily,
so I really didn't care that it wasn't. The bandwidth is
much lower I believe, anyway.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
William Curtis wrote:
[quote]
<wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
My understanding is that the navworx box is UAT only. In the US, the
FAA will support both 1090ES and UAT. 1090ES will be primarily for
24,000 feet and above while UAT will be below 24,000. UAT has a
number of advantages and my guess is that easily outdistance 1090ES.
http://navworx.com/docs/ADSBSlides.pdf
William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
------
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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I do have a clarification on this after emailing with Bill a little.
The PADS600 portable unit is indeed a receive-only unit, as William
made reference to. They will also have a transceiver that will
handle both transmit and receive. They do plan to certify that
unit. Since ADS-B will require you to transmit, there may be a
split-mode situation that some people will opt for. Like, my
GTX-330 is planned to be able to be upgraded to meet the 1090 ES
spec, which would satisfy my transmit requirements, and then I
could have the receiver-only system of UAT if I wanted. My guess
is that a Garmin upgrade to the GTX-330 though will add so much
cost that going with the NavWorx Transceiver will save money in
the end. I haven't heard pricing on the ADS600 non-portable, but
from my conversations so far, I'm assuming that the ADS600 is the
Transceiver version...made for permanent installations. That's
the one I've been planning to go with in the future. If it turns
out that there is a 3rd model, I'll let you know, but this is what
I've gathered for now. The reason I assume the ADS600 is the
transceiver he's referring to is that we had lots of discussion
as to how I could send appropriate altitude information to the
system so my proper altitude is transmitted, along with some other
things. But, I'll let you know as I learn more.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]
Just FYI, I did get some photos posted. Nothing earth shattering,
but at least you can see some of it.
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20081025/index.html
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> For this test it was just the PADS600 portable. The ADS600
> will give you the same basic thing, but you'll install a
> blade style DME antenna, and it will accept external GPS
> feeds. The one today had built-in GPS and a small stick
> antenna. For most people who are building planes, we'll
> want the fixed unit, because it will give better signal
> and performance.
>
> No, this is not a "receive only" system....it's the whole
> works, transmit and receive. Cool stuff, that's for sure.
>
> I'll do a quick write-up with photos when I can sit down
> and put it together.
>
> One other thing.....since Garmin does all their stuff using
> proprietary interfaces, this ADS-B isn't going to be an
> option on some Garmin products....they shoot themselves
> in the foot by not wanting to use more "open" interface
> specs. So the experimental and non-garmin world has a
> lot of good cost savings benefit by a product like this.
> I do think that it will feed some of the radios like
> the 430/530/480 though...but we didn't talk much about that,
> so I'm not sure.
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
> William Curtis wrote:
>>
>> <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Very cool! Are you using the portable PADS600 or the fixed ADS600?
>> IF the ADS600, what do you have for antenna placement and can you
>> confirm that this is a "receive only" system?
>>
>> William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
>>
>> ------
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: NavWorx Update |
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Ok, here is the further clarification already. I just got a reply
to my request for more info....
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The PADS600 is a portable ADS-B receiver-only product (comes with
USB and Garmin 396/496 connectors, bluetooth optional, separate dc jack
for power) - This is what we used Saturday (although a prototype with
different connector)
2. The ADS600 is a non-portable ADS-B receiver-only product (comes with
DB37 low density connector containing various interfaces - RS232 for
ADS-B data in/out, RS422 for GPS timemark signal for external WAAS GPS
navigator connection (eliminates the need to use our internal GPS, and
hence having to connect a separate GPS antenna. optional ARINC 429
interface for connecting to devices that display ARINC 735 TCAS traffic
(e.g. Garmin 430/530, GNS480).
3. The ADS600-T is the transceiver. Due to be certified by the end of
2009.
We plan on certifying both the receiver and transceiver. For now, we
will be selling un-certified ADS600 and PADS600 until that time. If one
purchases any product (cert or un-cert) from us before the certified
transceiver comes available, they can upgrade for cost difference plus
shipping. That's our plan for now. I have to say for legal reasons
that we reserve the right to change any thing I've mentioned above, at
any time (mainly because if the FAA finalizes the NPRM and it contains
something drastic that would change our cost structure, we'd have to
pass that along. If you remember when I had the box open at lunch, I
pointed to the board and said that the transmitter board would fit on
top of the existing receiver/processor board. All we do is change out
the top half of the chassis and add the tx board.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
[quote]
I do have a clarification on this after emailing with Bill a little.
The PADS600 portable unit is indeed a receive-only unit, as William
made reference to. They will also have a transceiver that will
handle both transmit and receive. They do plan to certify that
unit. Since ADS-B will require you to transmit, there may be a
split-mode situation that some people will opt for. Like, my
GTX-330 is planned to be able to be upgraded to meet the 1090 ES
spec, which would satisfy my transmit requirements, and then I
could have the receiver-only system of UAT if I wanted. My guess
is that a Garmin upgrade to the GTX-330 though will add so much
cost that going with the NavWorx Transceiver will save money in
the end. I haven't heard pricing on the ADS600 non-portable, but
from my conversations so far, I'm assuming that the ADS600 is the
Transceiver version...made for permanent installations. That's
the one I've been planning to go with in the future. If it turns
out that there is a 3rd model, I'll let you know, but this is what
I've gathered for now. The reason I assume the ADS600 is the
transceiver he's referring to is that we had lots of discussion
as to how I could send appropriate altitude information to the
system so my proper altitude is transmitted, along with some other
things. But, I'll let you know as I learn more.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
> Just FYI, I did get some photos posted. Nothing earth shattering,
> but at least you can see some of it.
> http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20081025/index.html
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
> do not archive
> Tim Olson wrote:
>>
>>
>> For this test it was just the PADS600 portable. The ADS600
>> will give you the same basic thing, but you'll install a
>> blade style DME antenna, and it will accept external GPS
>> feeds. The one today had built-in GPS and a small stick
>> antenna. For most people who are building planes, we'll
>> want the fixed unit, because it will give better signal
>> and performance.
>>
>> No, this is not a "receive only" system....it's the whole
>> works, transmit and receive. Cool stuff, that's for sure.
>>
>> I'll do a quick write-up with photos when I can sit down
>> and put it together.
>>
>> One other thing.....since Garmin does all their stuff using
>> proprietary interfaces, this ADS-B isn't going to be an
>> option on some Garmin products....they shoot themselves
>> in the foot by not wanting to use more "open" interface
>> specs. So the experimental and non-garmin world has a
>> lot of good cost savings benefit by a product like this.
>> I do think that it will feed some of the radios like
>> the 430/530/480 though...but we didn't talk much about that,
>> so I'm not sure.
>>
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>> William Curtis wrote:
>>>
>>> <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>
>>>
>>> Tim,
>>>
>>> Very cool! Are you using the portable PADS600 or the fixed ADS600?
>>> IF the ADS600, what do you have for antenna placement and can you
>>> confirm that this is a "receive only" system?
>>>
>>> William http://nerv10.com/wcurtis/
>>>
>>> ------
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