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steve(at)tomasara.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Bob and the group:



I did an aeroelectric search for "Dry Cell" and came up empty.  A quick 

(too quick, apparently) look at Concord's web-site comparing Dry Cells 

to VRLA batteries indicated that for the same Amp-Hr rating, the Dry 

Cells are a little heavier and significantly better in cold-cranking amps.



However, since I'm removing the starter as part of my LongEZ rebuild 

that doesn't do much for me.



On the other hand, if Dry Cell batteries perform better than VRLA in 

terms of durability (specifically shell-life, self-discharge and 

tolerance of time spent sitting while discharged) I would be interested.



Any thoughts from the group on the advantages (if any) and disadvantages 

(other than the obvious weight/cost.  e.g. do they use the same charging 

profile?) of a Dry Cell battery on a starterless airplane?



Best regards to all,



Steve Stearns

Boulder/Longmont, Colorado

CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)

Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)

Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 08:14 AM 8/25/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob and the group:



I did an aeroelectric search for "Dry Cell" and came up empty.  A quick 

(too quick, apparently) look at Concord's web-site comparing Dry Cells to 

VRLA batteries indicated that for the same Amp-Hr rating, the Dry Cells 

are a little heavier and significantly better in cold-cranking amps.



However, since I'm removing the starter as part of my LongEZ rebuild that 

doesn't do much for me.



On the other hand, if Dry Cell batteries perform better than VRLA in terms 

of durability (specifically shell-life, self-discharge and tolerance of 

time spent sitting while discharged) I would be interested.



Any thoughts from the group on the advantages (if any) and disadvantages 

(other than the obvious weight/cost.  e.g. do they use the same charging 

profile?) of a Dry Cell battery on a starterless airplane?


	


   Don't know what's being called a "dry cell". I'm aware

   of NO lead-acid technology that does not reside in

   one of three categories (1) flooded - like on your

   '65 chevy (2) gelled - like those on many wheelchairs

   and other 'mess-sensitive' need for deep-cycle

   batteries and (3) starved-electrolyte, valve-regulated

   lead-acid, recombinant-gas, thin-film, glass-mat, etc. etc.

   These are all names for essentially the same technology.

   The reason you didn't find "dry cell" mentioned in the website

   postings is because there's no such thing. ALL lead-acid

   technologies use liquid water and sulfuric acid electrolyte.

   The differences are whether the stuff is liquid and

   (1) sorta contained but with vented caps, (2) immobililzed

   by adding 'jello' or (3) immobilized by the wetting/

   capillary action of a finely woven glass 'kleenex'.



   Some folks like to call these "dry" . . . you CAN

   drive a nail through the side of the battery and it

   will not leak . . . but it is by no means dry.



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bat_thd.pdf



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battery.pdf



   Battery selection should not take up much of your

   time. What's your battery maintenance program?

   How much do you plan to depend on a battery?

   If you're day-vfr only, buy the cheapest battery

   you can find, run it 'til it craps. Engine cranking

   is the primary concern and any sealed lead-acid

   battery with terminals for fat wires will get your

   engine started. CAPACITY is another matter. If you

   plan to design and maintain a known level of

   battery-only endurance for en route operations

   then your first task is an energy analysis of

   your battery-only endurance, pick a battery that

   meets that requirement at 80% of rated capacity

   (don't forget to further de-rate for load!), and

   decide what protocols (preventative maintenance)

   you'll adopt as owner-operator to make sure that

   capacity is available to you at all times.



   This exercise can be successfully carried out

   with ANY battery brand or technology.



   Bob . . .

steve(at)tomasara.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

I'm pretty familiar with VRLA batteries.  This looked like something new 

but it could be that I got caught by marketing spin (I hate it when that 

happens...). I'll do some more homework and will report back if I find 

something interesting.



Steve Stearns

Boulder/Longmont, Colorado

CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)

Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)

Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Steve,



I think you are talking about the Odyssey "Dry Cell" battery series?  If so, they technology they use is "absorbed glass mat."  The Odyssey folks call them "Dry Cell" because if you were to break open the case, no electrolyte would run out.  It is totally contained within the glass mat material.  



So, yes, a bit of advertising hype.  But it is still an excellent battery.  I have an Odyssey 680 in my (under construction) Europa.  The battery is 5 years old.  I've been using it to test the panel as it was installed.  There were periods as long as a year and a half where the battery sat unused.  It held a charge for those unused periods. After 5 years of such abuse, it still turns the engine (Rotax 914) over quite briskly.  Prior to first flight, I'm troubleshooting a few last gremlins in the instrument panel and it will run the panel all day long.  When it's time to replace it, I'll have no hesitation replacing it with another new Odyssey.



Just my two bits.



Bob Borger

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL



 

On Tuesday, August 26, 2008, at 07:25AM, "Steve Stearns" <steve(at)tomasara.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm pretty familiar with VRLA batteries.  This looked like something new 

but it could be that I got caught by marketing spin (I hate it when that 

happens...). I'll do some more homework and will report back if I find 

something interesting.



Steve Stearns

Boulder/Longmont, Colorado

CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)

Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)

Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:36 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 08:07 AM 8/26/2008 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Steve,



I think you are talking about the Odyssey "Dry Cell" battery series?  If 

so, they technology they use is "absorbed glass mat."  The Odyssey folks 

call them "Dry Cell" because if you were to break open the case, no 

electrolyte would run out.  It is totally contained within the glass mat 

material.



So, yes, a bit of advertising hype.  But it is still an excellent 

battery.  I have an Odyssey 680 in my (under construction) Europa.  The 

battery is 5 years old.  I've been using it to test the panel as it was 

installed.  There were periods as long as a year and a half where the 

battery sat unused.  It held a charge for those unused periods. After 5 

years of such abuse, it still turns the engine (Rotax 914) over quite 

briskly.  Prior to first flight, I'm troubleshooting a few last gremlins 

in the instrument panel and it will run the panel all day long.  When it's 

time to replace it, I'll have no hesitation replacing it with another new 

Odyssey.


	


   The Odyssey batteries are a product of the old

   Gates-cum-Hawker-cum-EnerSys prismatic cell batteries

   built here:



http://www.odysseyfactory.com/about.html



   Got to tour this plant a few years ago while on

   assignment with Raytheon/H-B. The full line of

   their products can be seen at:



http://www.odysseybatteries.com/



   Without a doubt, these products are at the leading

   edge of battery quality and performance . . . with a price

   to match. As I recall, about 700 folks running a highly

   automated manufacturing process produces about 60,000

   batteries a day!



   But it's still an SVLA battery loaded with the same

   water-acid mix used by their competitors.



   Bob . . .

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?

You don't have to be an old timer to remember that "dry cells"

are carbon - zinc flashlight batteries.



I love my Odyssey battery but it sounds like one of their marketing

folks stepped out on a limb without engineering support

_________________
Ira N224XS

mikefapex

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Colorado

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?

A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in their docs.



The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to answer that, to build an accurate test.



Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,



Mike

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 09:17 AM 8/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you 

determine the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to 

find that in their docs.



The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, 

and one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure 

how to answer that, to build an accurate test.


	


   ALL lead-acid batteries are composed of cells that

   develop just over 2 volts per cell at room temperature.

   Like the batteries used in our cars since day-one,

   a 6v battery is 3 cells; a 12 battery is 6 cells,

   etc.



   I'm not sure why West Mountain puts that block into

   their setup screen . . . the value placed in it has

   no effect on how the test is run. It's a constant

   current discharge + data acquisition system that will

   yield the same plot irrespective of what values go

   into the "battery type" and "cells" boxes.



   I'm pleased that you've acquired one of these

   very useful tools!



   Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Mike,



A single lead-acid cell will produce approximately 2.1 volts.  For a 12 volt ( 12.6 volts actually) battery that is 6 cells.



Check out "lead acid battery" in the Wikipedia.



Bob Borger

On Tuesday, August 26, 2008, at 11:17AM, "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in their docs.



The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to answer that, to build an accurate test.



Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,



Mike





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0678#200678

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 09:03 AM 8/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



You don't have to be an old timer to remember that "dry cells"

are carbon - zinc flashlight batteries.


	


   Hmmmm . . . I think the witch's brew of gooey stuff

   in side was still moist and probably water based. I

   also recall how badly they could leak! There was a time

   that one battery manufacturer (Eveready I think) offered

   to repair or replace any appliance that was trashed due

   to leakage of their new and improved cells.

 	  Quote: 	
		  I love my Odyssey battery but it sounds like one of their marketing

folks stepped out on a limb without engineering support.


	


   It's been my experience that the last folks marketing

   wants to hear from are the engineers!



   Bob . . .

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

* AeroElectric-List message posted by: "mikef" <mikefapex(at)gmail.com>



A question related to Odessey batteries specifically, how can you determine

the number of 'cells' within the battery. I've not been able to find that in

their docs.



The reason I ask is that I just got a West Mountain CBA battery tester, and

one of the test parameters is the 'number of cells' . Not really sure how to

answer that, to build an accurate test.



Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks,



Mike



Mike,

* Lead acid batteries, such as the odessey, are about 2 V per cell, which

means a 12V battery has 6 cells.

*

*  Roger

mikefapex

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Colorado

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?

Thanks for the battery cell info, it does help. 



I am very glad to have gotten the CBA battery tester and look forward to using it. I'll post feedback as I run some tests. 



Sunday I fired up the engine on my new Z19 system and ground ran for a few minutes. All smoke stayed in wires, major circuits worked as expected. Its a beautiful thing. 



Thanks again,



Mike

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?

Is there a source for these batteries in an 8ah rating that does not have the fast-on tabs, such as those used on wheelchairs? The smallest I've found with bolt-on terminals is 17ah.



Thx,

Bradley

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 04:48 AM 8/27/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Is there a source for these batteries in an 8ah rating that does not have 

the fast-on tabs, such as those used on wheelchairs? The smallest I've 

found with bolt-on terminals is 17ah.



Thx,

Bradley


	


   The field of choices drops rapidly when you go below

   17 a.h. Few manufacturers of smaller batteries are

   interested in the applications that include engine

   cranking. Concorde used to have a smaller battery

   with machine screw threaded brass terminals but I think

   they've discontinued it.



   B&C offers a 12 a.h. with fat-wire connections . . .



http://www.bandc.biz/BC103-1.pdf



   I believe this is the Odyssey PC545



http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc545series.htm



aa56ea1.jpg



   which has a 14 a.h. capacity at the 20 hr rate.



   There is one smaller. The PC310 has fat-wire terminals

   (4mm) and capable of cranking engines.



   You can get the technical manual for the PC series

   batteries at:



http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Batteries/Enersys_Hawker/Odyssey_PC_Series_TM.pdf



   You'll note that the 310 is less than half the battery

   than the popular PC625.



    What are your requirements for capacity? Have you

    done an energy study for battery-only endurance?

    The 310 is not cheap and it's fragile compared to it's

    larger siblings.



        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Search the Dekka line. Same thing as Odysey with bolt on terminials 8 AH.

Ken



Beemer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Is there a source for these batteries in an 8ah rating that does not have the fast-on tabs, such as those used on wheelchairs? The smallest I've found with bolt-on terminals is 17ah.

 

 Thx,

 Bradley

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

At 10:35 AM 8/27/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Search the Dekka line. Same thing as Odysey with bolt on terminials 8 AH.

Ken


	


  Do you have a specific part number for Deka? While looking

  for them I found this "Power Star" product on Ebay



bb99768.jpg

It's a 9 a.h. device, probably at the 20hour rate. This makes

it a 4.5 a.h. battery for powering an e-bus for 3 hours . . .

i.e, about 1.5A ebus. Size is L = 5.91 x W = 3.39 H = 4.21



A 9 a.h. battery would weigh in at about 7-8 pounds.



  Bob . . .

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klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Mine are ETX9 Dekka Power Sports batteries. As mentioned before one will 

start my subaru fine but they normally auto parallel for cranking on my 

bird as per Z-14. The cables bolt onto the top or the side of the 

battery which is convenient. Next size up is the ETX12 at about the same 

price. Made in USA.

Ken

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 10:35 AM 8/27/2008 -0400, you wrote:

> 

>

> Search the Dekka line. Same thing as Odysey with bolt on terminials 8 AH.

> Ken

  Do you have a specific part number for Deka? While looking

  for them I found this "Power Star" product on Ebay

 bb99768.jpg

 It's a 9 a.h. device, probably at the 20hour rate. This makes

 it a 4.5 a.h. battery for powering an e-bus for 3 hours . . .

 i.e, about 1.5A ebus. Size is L = 5.91 x W = 3.39 H = 4.21

 *Truncated!*

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *This message exceeded the Maximum Message Size set in Account Settings, 

 so we have only downloaded the first few lines from the mail server.*

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Dry Cell Batteries?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

At 04:48 AM 8/27/2008 -0700, you wrote:



Is there a source for these batteries in an 8ah rating that does not have 

the fast-on tabs, such as those used on wheelchairs? The smallest I've 

found with bolt-on terminals is 17ah.



Thx,

Bradley



<snip>



    What are your requirements for capacity? Have you

    done an energy study for battery-only endurance?

    The 310 is not cheap and it's fragile compared to it's

    larger siblings.



        Bob . . .



	




After much discussion, we think this is how my electrically-dependent engine breaks out...



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Current draw on 4 cylinder EFI engines:



Pump at 40 psi- 5-8 amps

Injectors at 5000 rpm- 3-4 amps

Ignition at 5000 rpm- 2.5-4 amps (depends on coil charge time)

ECU- .15- .6 amps depending on ECU



My total current draw in flight at 4500 rpm with 2 pumps on (one LP

Facet, one HP Bosch 048), transponder, comm, gps, injectors, coils,

ECU and scavenge pump is 18 amps. 	




We seem to think that the 17ah PC680 clone would give just about 15 minutes of realistic run time, given some age on the battery. I guess I might have to carry the weight of another battery around to be safe.



Bradley

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

Sam

Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 135

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

Bradley,

 I am installing a similar system and I think those numbers seem a little high.  I know the Walbro pump I'm going to use

 is listed at 4 amps.  What injectors and coils are you using?, Again, to my uneducated mind those numbers seem high.

 I have a similar setup and I think I'm looking at around 12.5 amps.

 RWS EC3 controller

 Walbro pump

 Delco LS-1 coils

 Transponder, GPS, COM, etc.

 Two contactors

 I have the LS-1 coils only using 1/2 amp.

 Sam

 Murphysboro, IL

 www.samhoskins.blogspot.com

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Beemer <bmwebb(at)cox.net (bmwebb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Beemer" <bmwebb(at)cox.net (bmwebb(at)cox.net)>

 >

 > At 04:48 AM 8/27/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 >

 > Is there a source for these batteries in an 8ah rating that does not have

 > the fast-on tabs, such as those used on wheelchairs? The smallest I've

 > found with bolt-on terminals is 17ah.

 >

 > Thx,

 > Bradley

 >

 >

 >

 >     What are your requirements for capacity? Have you

 >     done an energy study for battery-only endurance?

 >     The 310 is not cheap and it's fragile compared to it's

 >     larger siblings.

 >

 >

 >

 >         Bob . . .

 >

 >

 After much discussion, we think this is how my electrically-dependent engine breaks out...

 >

 >

 > Current draw on 4 cylinder EFI engines:

 >

 > Pump at 40 psi- 5-8 amps

 > Injectors at 5000 rpm- 3-4 amps

 > Ignition at 5000 rpm- 2.5-4 amps (depends on coil charge time)

 > ECU- .15- .6 amps depending on ECU

 >

 > My total current draw in flight at 4500 rpm with 2 pumps on (one LP

 > Facet, one HP Bosch 048), transponder, comm, gps, injectors, coils,

 > ECU and scavenge pump is 18 amps.

 We seem to think that the 17ah PC680 clone would give just about 15 minutes of realistic run time, given some age on the battery. I guess I might have to carry the weight of another battery around to be safe.

 Bradley

 --------

 Beemer

 KF2 (and now an M3!)

 Middle Georgia

 Read this topic online here:

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9455#209455]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9455#209455[/url]

 [b]

_________________
Sam Hoskins
www.samhoskins.blogspot.com

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Dry Cell Batteries?

 	  Quote: 	
		   >

 >     What are your requirements for capacity? Have you

 >     done an energy study for battery-only endurance?

 >     The 310 is not cheap and it's fragile compared to it's

 >     larger siblings.

 >

 >         Bob . . .

 >

 > After much discussion, we think this is how my electrically-dependent 

 engine breaks out...



 > Current draw on 4 cylinder EFI engines:

 >

 > Pump at 40 psi- 5-8 amps

 > Injectors at 5000 rpm- 3-4 amps

 > Ignition at 5000 rpm- 2.5-4 amps (depends on coil charge time)

 > ECU- .15- .6 amps depending on ECU

 >

 > My total current draw in flight at 4500 rpm with 2 pumps on (one LP

 > Facet, one HP Bosch 048), transponder, comm, gps, injectors, coils,

 > ECU and scavenge pump is 18 amps.

We seem to think that the 17ah PC680 clone would give just about 15 

minutes of realistic run time, given some age on the battery. I guess I 

might have to carry the weight of another battery around to be safe.


	


    According to the performance curves at:



http://tinyurl.com/5p6d4w



    a 17A load on a 100% battery will give you just

    under 30 minutes of run time down to about 10V. So

    a battery due for replacement would be suited

    for about 20 minutes of operation.



    Consider running both batteries of a 2-battery

    architecture in parallel. Losses in any given battery is an

    I(squared)*R function. By cutting the current per

    battery by about 1/2, the energy lost in each battery

    drops to 1/4th the original amount. Doing 1/4

    per battery in two batteries gets you 1/2 the

    lost watts. Two 17 a.h. batteries gives you

    34 a.h. of total capacity. An 18A load on this

    combo goes to a 60+ minutes of duration.



    A savings of 5 or so pounds can be realized by

    going to a single 28 a.h. battery.



http://tinyurl.com/6eu2p8



    The internal impedance of this battery seems

    better than two 17 a.h. in parallel. It gives

    you the same 60+ minutes at less weight

    and total capacity.



    Of course, with a single battery or treating

    two batteries as one battery dictates an

    aggressive capacity tracking protocol. If

    ever there was an power plant begging for

    a second, small alternator, it's this one.



    Bob . . .

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