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Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

I am assuming that your definition of "level" was with a digital level

(indicating to the 0.1 degree) and not a bubble level.  Just like in

hand grenades and bombs.



Level both fore and aft and port to starboard.  The hangar doors need to

be closed to wind effects as well, in a normal weight environment.



John Cox - RV10 N49CX =Dreaming of Living the Dream



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

Ok I have a max gross weight question. How are boilers able to change the

max gross weight for there 10.  I thought the published max gross is

2700lbs,  but I see here they range from 2700 to 2850.

How are they able to do that??

Van's RV-10  	Ted French  	C-FXCS  	Lycoming IO-540  	260

76" MT 3-blade Composite CS  	49.58"  	1557  	2700  	1143  	60

783  	 

Van's RV-10 	Tim Olson 	N104CD 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	108.67" 	1685 	2700 	1015 	60

655 	100% Complete right down to the ...

Van's RV-10 	Gary Specketer 	N204GS 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	78"

AeroComposites 2-blade Composite CS 	0.06" 	1699 	2700 	1001 	60

641 	Full IFR Upholstery, Dual Altena...

Van's RV-10 	Chuck Stuhrenberg 	N300WC 	Lycoming O-540 	300 	72"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	106.98" 	1615 	2900 	1285 	60

925 	 

Van's RV-10 	Rene Felker 	N423CF 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	109.22" 	1698 	2800 	1102 	60

742 	Full IFR, 2 Alt, full interior

Van's RV-10 	Bob Condrey 	N442PM 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	108.2" 	1632 	2700 	1068 	60 	708

All electric, dual batteries, du...

Van's RV-10 	David McNeill 	N46007 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	109.13" 	1630 	2700 	1070 	60

710 	 

Van's RV-10 	Anh Vu 	N591VU 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80" Hartzell

2-blade Aluminum CS 	106.99" 	1625 	2700 	1075 	60 	715

Datum is 99.44" forward of wing ...

Van's RV-10 	vic Syracuse 	N64VC 	Lycoming IO-540 	310 	72"

MT 3-blade Composite CS 	89.59" 	1665 	2850 	1185 	75 	735

CG limits are aft of leading edg...

Van's RV-10 	Russell Daves 	N710RV 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	76"

MT 3-blade Composite CS 	108.05" 	1584 	2700 	1116 	60

756 	 

Van's RV-10 	BARRY MARZ 	N789AB 	Lycoming IO-540 	260 	80"

Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	108.73" 	1648 	2700 	1052 	60

692 	 

Van's RV-10 	Albert Gardner 	N991RV 	Lycoming IO-540 	310 	78"

AeroComposites 3-blade Composite CS 	110.35" 	1634 	2800 	1166

60 	806 	 

Van's RV-10 	Dave Emond 	ZU - RVD 	Lycoming IO-540 	260

80" Hartzell 2-blade Aluminum CS 	108.33" 	1631 	2700



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

Ball point pen with the ink above 212 degrees F.  DAR approval after

cool down.  FAA acceptance upon receipt.  "Cause it is - Experimental".



I will listen for those using more than VAN's tested and approved 2700

lbs. for the Static Load to Gross Weight Testing results.  Maybe the

jettison Max Fuel Load for Landing back to 2700 prior to emergency

touchdown?



As more of the Van's fleet sustained collapsed nose gear incidents (not

with the RV-10 Fleet), my attention became perked.



John



--

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

At the risk of being flamed.  Adjusted g limits of my airplane based on a

set of assumptions derived from the Vans number.  In other words, my

airplane is not rated for 3.8g at its max gross weight of 2800.  Now, in

reality, I will have trouble getting my airplane up to 2800 pounds.  During

testing, I loaded it out at 2780 putting it at the aft CG.  I just could not

fit any more sand bags in the front seat... .



Now, with the 2800 lbs I will not get caught being overweight during ramp

check or accident investigation, but like I said, I will have trouble

getting there anyway......and still staying within the aft CG.



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

Max gross weight is established by the manufacturer; you are the

manufacturer, not Vans. That said it is good judgment to keep your stated

gross close to Vans since they have done the structural testing on the

airframe. Because I did not ever want to have Pssin match with an insurance

company over whether I was at 2700 or 2710 or 2723, I set mine for the

record to 2800. 



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

This is some good stuff!



Now, can I conclude from David's post that insurance underwriters may

actually accept an "Approval of Claim" rather than the more typical

"Denial of Claim" when the VANs factory, a large number of builders and

Dick V placed the hard gross weight at =<2700 lbs max for the RV-10

insurance pool and then the builder/claimant uses a higher arbitrary

number?  Can I conclude from Rene, that use of sandbags above 2700lbs is

not to demonstrate the wing spars will take the static weight "In

Flight" but is a rather a ground load test on the fuselage construction,

the leg attachment and the wheels/tires?  Can a builder disregard the

3.8 Positive and the negative G factors when submitting to DAR

paperwork?  At 3.8G that requires 5130 pounds of sand "Per Wing" or

10,260 GW for Wing Loading of the total Aircraft if exceeding the

factory recommendation.



Are the planes signed by the DAR to Normal, Utility, Aerobatic or a new

category - based on specific Positive/Negative G forces? What can we do

to make an RV-10 capable of legal aerobatic maneuvers?  What fuel load

reduction is required for a 3.8 Normal to go to Utility Flight or

Aerobatic Flight?  Does Maneuvering Speed change with higher Gross

Weight entries into the POH?



Is there more than Pen & Ink involvement?



What is the Testing Practice (prior to DAR) when going "off the

reservation"?



No flame intended.  This remains Good Stuff.  John Cumin is to be

commended for extracting Dan Checkoway's data.  And Thanks to those

honest enough to post on this important subject.  Michael, I am missing

your wit here.



John Cox

Aurora State



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msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

I'm pretty much witless here.  This is one of those subjects much like politics, everyone is very passionate about their opinion but many don't actually have any real data behind their choices.



  It's of course very true that we are all the manufacturers and as such we can make any changes or set any limits that we deem applicable (and I hope safe) without having to produce the data to backup what we do.  The Fed or DAR is there to make sure we haven't done anything stupid in a big way but unfortunately it's all the stupid little things that usually stack up on each other to bite us in the arse at the worst possible time.



  As to increasing your gross weight I can understand the argument of what if you are ramp checked and happen to be at 2701#.  Then there is also always the liability issue with a higher than normal gross and selling the aircraft.  Even if you never plan on going over 2700# it doesn't mean the guy that buys it won't if you published higher.  I guarantee that's one you won't win when you are asked to produce the data for the increase by the prosecution.  Setting your gross at something higher would protect you from being violated for a minor oversight but how much is too much?  Sure you could be like the big boys and set a max landing weight of say 2700# and a max takeoff of 2800# and 1.5g's but that still leaves you with a big grey area on performance of the actual aircraft and every component unless you have tested it to failure.



  As to beating out the insurance should you need to collect, I think that is pretty easy to sum up.  Insurance companies and the FAA prefer to interpret things how they see fit without much concern for what is written.  Even if your policy says you are covered, I'll bet you a doughnut and coffee that if you put in your gross as more than 2700# and you still call it an RV-10, they won't pay out if you show up at the site of the incident over 2700#.  If you really want to jack up your gross, call it something else and make sure you fly it at gross and at your various CG and G limits during your testing phase to be sure you don't crack a spar or do a tail slide when you are out showing your QB buddy how great this thing stalls with his center and offensive line buddy in back. 



  Anyway to each his own.  It is an Experimental after all isn't it.  And as such you are in this for your own education and entertainment aren't you.  Right?!?  Just make sure you complete the experiment part before you load up with your family or sell it on down the road.



Michael

State of Delusion

Do not archive



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

My DC10 gas a gross of 2800. 



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

Just a note from the Vans site.



"Part 23 requires that the wing support 1.5 times the limit load of 3.8G

 (i.e.: 5.7G) for 3 seconds in all conditions. It allows the use of a

different test article for each condition. We used the same test article to

test for all conditions. Ours is a more severe test, because the wing could

be weakened by one test before the next is run. As full load is reached, the

wing creaks and groans and wrinkles run like heavy seas across the top

skins. Engineers start using some strange body English and holding their

lips all funny. When the last few shot bags are loaded, the atmosphere can

be pretty tense. We were very pleased to find that our calculations had been

correct and the wing passed all the requirements of Part 23."



The wing passed all three tests use the same fixture. Manufacturers are

allowed to use a new wing for each test. Likewise the FAA permits certified

aircraft less than 12500# to operate at 115% of certificated weight in

Alaska. I believe this is due to engine power availability rather than

structural strength of the airframe. So I am not worried that a 4% increase

in gross weight will compromise safety.

 



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Weighing prior to DAR paperwork

Please note the reg cited does NOT allow any and every pilot to

operate every plane at 115% of gross in Alaska. It requires specific

approval for a specific operation and is in no way generic. It is more

like getting a ferry permit for oceanic flights for extra fuel. Yes,

you generally do have more power and lift available, as only in the

heat of summer do you get to ISO or above conditions.



On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:57 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:

   Likewise the FAA permits certified

 	  Quote: 	
		   aircraft less than 12500# to operate at 115% of certificated weight in

 Alaska. I believe this is due to engine power availability rather than

 structural strength of the airframe. So I am not worried that a 4% increase

 in gross weight will compromise safety.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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