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how to make the wings stronger?

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jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

Hi List



I actually tend to believe that most of the wing accidents were caused by pilot error/judgment.  However, not being an engineer, am wondering how one would go about making the wings stronger.  There must be a way we could modify the wing/attaching points or whatever to add a lot of strength to the wing assembly.  I have no idea or experience on how this could be done, but i am sure there are plenty of people on this list that could figure out a way.  It may be lighter and cheaper that getting a parachute system. Even a parachute won't help if a wing falls off at low altitude.  I certainly would give up a few (lot) pounds to not to ever have to worry about wing departure.

john

XL, corvair

Torrance, CA

countzero

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Re: how to make the wings stronger?

Hello John,



You could reduce the loading on the wings by lowering your gross weight. This is not the same as improving the structure pound for pound but is far simpler for you to do.



Rob

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

John,

 

 This is not intended as a "flaming" response.  I just want share my thoughts on structural modifications.

 

 An aircraft structure is one of the most interdependent structural systems there is.  You can't just "beef up" one part without knowing how that effects stresses on adjacent parts and parts adjacent to those.  A building designer wouldn't dream of adding a floor to a high-rise building without checking all the existing columns, beams and foundations to see if they could take the additional weight and moments. In order to do that, he would have to have access to, and understand all the structural calculations. The same applies to an airplane.  I would not trust ANY structural modification unless I knew, without a doubt, that all the structural design calculations had been checked and that they would allow such a modification. An airplane structure is just not a good thing to "tinker" with.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 Do not archive

 

   

 

 --

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

When we look at the incidents, some are looked upon as pilot error, a

thunderstorm comes to mind. But also keep in mind that mechanical errors

can also creep in (missing bolts and cable tension are foremost in my

thoughts). There are many flying 601XL's and quite a few have amazing

hours accumulated. Zenair has time and time again tested the design for

many countries standards as well as use a 3rd party to test the

structure. 



One thing I have seen in looking at some planes is that the cables are

not to spec in tension. These may have been set properly prior to first

flight but not stretched, which would allow slacking. We also tend not

to own a tension meter of which I would recommend having. 



We have read letters from Chris on Zenith's website and AMD's as well as

a letter in the Zenair Newsletter about the importance of cable tension.

Attached is a letter issued from Zenair Europe as an AD. In America we

can only see an AD from the FAA so if we look on Zeniths website we see

a Zenair Safety Alert at

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/ad-ze-2008-01.pdf



Read this and take it to action. IF you have been flying your plane

check it before next flight with a proper gauge. IF you're building

remember to pre-stretch your cables and check often during initial

flights and in a set interval during the life of the plane. 



Entertaining an idea of changing a design that bears up in mathematical

and physical structural testing seems fool hardy and ill advised.

Ensuring that your plane is to standards as set forth by designer and

AC43-13b would be far more prudent and well in the reach of each

builder.



My Thoughts. 

Mark Townsend  Alma, Ontario

Zodiac CH650 C-GOXL, CH701 Rotax 912,

STOL CH750 Just started

www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com

AD#_ZE-2008-01.pdf

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K Dilks

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: how to make the wings stronger?

The euro plane empty weight is quoted as 265 KG

 most empty zodiacs come in at 320 to 340kg

 So besides the undercarrige where else can they save  that much weight.

 I have looked hard to day around the net but I am sure they are using ,16 skins. Maybe not on CZAW planes but on the ones from Dynaero in Portugal..    

  Not also the the data for loading . 6g is the ultimate  so operational is 4g . I wonder if guys are pulling 6 thinking there safe.

 The lower figure of 4 is somtimes give and is on the plans.Check ZAC web site.

 All in all with so many versions and makers / suppliers this is quite a mess to work out.

_________________
Back home .................

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

On Thursday 30 October 2008 08:48, john butterfield wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I actually tend to believe that most of the wing accidents were caused by

 pilot error/judgment.  However, not being an engineer, am wondering how one

 would go about making the wings stronger.  There must be a way we could

 modify the wing/attaching points or whatever to add a lot of strength to

 the wing assembly.  


	


 <snip> 



First, let me say I agree with the caution that one cannot change one part of 

a structure without considering the impact on the rest of the structure. We 

can't afford to make structural changes to the design, without a lot more 

information than is available. 



Having said that, it has appeared to me (since I first looked at the design) 

that the 6 AN5 bolts which connect the wing spar to the carry-through spar 

are pretty small and few in number to the task. There isn't that much overlap 

between the wing spar and the carry-through spar to transfer the wing loading 

to the rest of the structure.



The commercial designs with which I'm most familiar had more and larger bolts, 

and in some cases, close-tolerance bolts. There is, as I recall, much more 

overlap between the spars to allow for reasonable spacing between the extra 

bolts.



Is this the problem? Only the results of the various accident reports will 

tell. But it could sure cause wing separation, if it is. 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Martin Pohl

Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: CH-8645 Jona SG, Switzerland

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Re: how to make the wings stronger?

The average empty weight for CZAW CH601XLs seems to be around 310 - 320 kg. The new European version might be different.



I checked my kit and I can assure that (on my CZAW 601XL) the wing sheet thickness is 0.025".



Cheers Martin[/quote]

_________________
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
http://www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL/Main.html

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

Maybe we should learn from this pilot!

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCbkBfdBrQ&eurl=http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html

  

 This is incredible. 

  

 Joe Motis

 Do not archive

  In a message dated 10/30/2008 9:17:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  z601(at)anemicaardvark.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher    <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>



On Thursday 30 October 2008 08:48, john    butterfield wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I actually tend to believe that most of the    wing accidents were caused by

 pilot error/judgment.  However, not    being an engineer, am wondering how one

 would go about making the    wings stronger.  There must be a way we could

 modify the    wing/attaching points or whatever to add a lot of strength to

 the wing    assembly.  


	


<snip> 



First, let me say I agree with    the caution that one cannot change one part of 

a structure without    considering the impact on the rest of the structure. We 

can't afford to    make structural changes to the design, without a lot more 

information than    is available. 



Having said that, it has appeared to me (since I first    looked at the design) 

that the 6 AN5 bolts which connect the wing spar to    the carry-through spar 

are pretty small and few in number to the task.    There isn't that much overlap 

between the wing spar and the carry-through    spar to transfer the wing loading 

to the rest of the structure.



The    commercial designs with which I'm most familiar had more and larger bolts,    

and in some cases, close-tolerance bolts. There is, as I recall, much more    

overlap between the spars to allow for reasonable spacing between the    extra 

bolts.



Is this the problem? Only the results of the various    accident reports will 

tell. But it could sure cause wing separation, if it    is. 

==============================================

Those who can, do.    Those who can't,    sue.

========================

                  Jim B. Belcher

    BS,    MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                     A&P/IA

              Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio    Telephone    Certificate

===================e the  es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




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  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

Yeah (as previously mentioned) it is a pretty good fake:  

   

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_ViralVideo_KillaThrill_LostWingLanding_199096-1.html  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joemotis(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:45 PM

 To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: how to make the wings stronger?  

  

  

     

Maybe we should learn from this pilot!  

    

   

    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCbkBfdBrQ&eurl=http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html  

    

   

    

This is incredible.   

    

   

    

Joe Motis  

    

Do not archive  

      

In a message dated 10/30/2008 9:17:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, z601(at)anemicaardvark.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>

 

 On Thursday 30 October 2008 08:48, john butterfield wrote:

 

 > I actually tend to believe that most of the wing accidents were caused by

 > pilot error/judgment.  However, not being an engineer, am wondering how one

 > would go about making the wings stronger.  There must be a way we could

 > modify the wing/attaching points or whatever to add a lot of strength to

 > the wing assembly.  

 

 <snip> 

 

 First, let me say I agree with the caution that one cannot change one part of 

 a structure without considering the impact on the rest of the structure. We 

 can't afford to make structural changes to the design, without a lot more 

 information than is available. 

 

 Having said that, it has appeared to me (since I first looked at the design) 

 that the 6 AN5 bolts which connect the wing spar to the carry-through spar 

 are pretty small and few in number to the task. There isn't that much overlap 

 between the wing spar and the carry-through spar to transfer the wing loading 

 to the rest of the structure.

 

 The commercial designs with which I'm most familiar had more and larger bolts, 

 and in some cases, close-tolerance bolts. There is, as I recall, much more 

 overlap between the spars to allow for reasonable spacing between the extra 

 bolts.

 

 Is this the problem? Only the results of the various accident reports will 

 tell. But it could sure cause wing separation, if it is. 

 =====================

 Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

 ========================

                Jim B. Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                   A&P/IA

            Instrument Rated Pilot

      General Radio Telephone Certificate

 ===================e the es y   -->              - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp;            - List Contribution Web Site ;                         

 

 

   	
  

  



 

         

  

Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!  

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Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

It certainly faked  me out!

  

 Joe Motis

 Do Not Archive

  

  In a message dated 10/30/2008 6:01:02 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

Yeah    (as previously mentioned) it is a pretty good fake:   

    

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_ViralVideo_KillaThrill_LostWingLanding_199096-1.html   

    

--    Craig   

          

From:    owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    Joemotis(at)aol.com

Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:45    PM

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re:    how to make the wings    stronger?



   

       

Maybe    we should learn from this pilot!

      

 

      

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCbkBfdBrQ&eurl=http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html

      

 

      

This    is incredible. 

      

 

      

Joe    Motis

      

Do    not archive

         

In a    message dated 10/30/2008 9:17:07 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,    z601(at)anemicaardvark.com writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		       

-->      Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher      <z601(at)anemicaardvark.com>



On Thursday 30 October 2008 08:48,      john butterfield wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I actually tend to believe that most of      the wing accidents were caused by

 pilot error/judgment.       However, not being an engineer, am wondering how one

 would go about      making the wings stronger.  There must be a way we could

 modify      the wing/attaching points or whatever to add a lot of strength to

      the wing assembly.  


	


<snip> 



First, let me say I      agree with the caution that one cannot change one part of 

a structure      without considering the impact on the rest of the structure. We 

can't      afford to make structural changes to the design, without a lot more      

information than is available. 



Having said that, it has appeared      to me (since I first looked at the design) 

that the 6 AN5 bolts which      connect the wing spar to the carry-through spar 

are pretty small and few      in number to the task. There isn't that much overlap 

between the wing      spar and the carry-through spar to transfer the wing loading 

to the rest      of the structure.



The commercial designs with which I'm most familiar      had more and larger bolts, 

and in some cases, close-tolerance bolts.      There is, as I recall, much more 

overlap between the spars to allow for      reasonable spacing between the extra 

bolts.



Is this the problem?      Only the results of the various accident reports will 

tell. But it could      sure cause wing separation, if it is. 

=====================

Those who      can, do. Those who can't, sue.

========================

                    Jim B. Belcher

    BS,      MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                       A&P/IA

                Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio      Telephone Certificate

===================e the es y   -->                   - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp;                 - List Contribution Web Site ;                                   

	


   

            

   

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paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: how to make the wings stronger?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I'm not an engineer, and don't even play one in commercials, but I don't  recall anything surfacing in any of the failures that indicated sheared  through-bolts. 6 AN5's per wing ought to hold several thousand ponds more  then  1320 at 6G's. However, the Dutch report is the first one, I think, to  have mentioned that the spar reinforcements were twisted and bent outside the  wing/fusalage connection. If memory serves, at that point you have two (roughly)  quarter inch by one and a quarter solid aluminum bars, a web of .040 or .060  sheet, and a flange of .040, for top and bottom. All of that is held by driven  rivets (I forget the size) It would be really useful to see pictures of the  failed area. Could the rivets have not been tight? If the rivets didn't do their  job, then the individual units weren't supporting each other, and the  reinforcement bars could have given, one by one. Just a theory........

  

 Paul Rodriguez

 601XL/Corvair

 [quote]   ---

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