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airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked up by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone can continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down, it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing where the path ends.



This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult.  I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential problems?



DO NOT ARCHIVE

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Good Morning airlincoln,

  

 Doesn't that sound a lot like the commercial venture called SPOT?

  

 They sold like hot cakes at Oshkosh this year.

  

 Happy  Skies



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22   

  In a message dated 11/3/2008 8:30:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,  airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just got    done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an Automatic    Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand    correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked    up by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone can    continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,    it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing where    the path ends.

	






Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!

  [quote][b]

jbr79r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

This sounds a lot like SPOT

JimRobinson

Glll  N79R



--- On Mon, 11/3/08, Lincoln Keill <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[quote]From: Lincoln Keill <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>

Subject: APRS for aircraft?

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:25 AM



[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lincoln Keill

<airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>



Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an

Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand

correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked up

by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone  can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.



This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?



DO NOT [quote][b]

morgjj

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 24

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

The beauty is no recurring fees, unlike spot.  

   

     

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Robinson

 Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:22 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: APRS for aircraft?  

  

           

This sounds a lot like SPOT

   JimRobinson

   Glll  N79R

   

   --- On Mon, 11/3/08, Lincoln Keill <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>   wrote:   

From: Lincoln Keill   <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>

   Subject: APRS for aircraft?

   To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

   Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:25 AM    	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lincoln Keill

<airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>

  

Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an

Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand

correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked up

by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT         -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --           (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)   November is the Annual List Fund Raiser.  Click on can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   can

continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

where the path ends.

  

This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT

that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what

the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't

seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his

wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip

antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. 

I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly

consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could

get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential

problems?

  

DO NOT 	
9 	  Quote: 	
		   	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9 	  Quote: 	
		   	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6     

   

        [quote][b]

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Lincoln Keill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked up by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone can continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down, it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing where the path ends.



 This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult.  I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential problems?



   

Lincoln, there are other neat aspects.
	




-The devices can be transceivers, retransmitting packets received from 

other airplanes in the area.

-The devices can attach a small amount of text data to the packets.  It 

is trivial to attach an emergency call number to the packet.  It would 

be equally trivial to attach an emergency "We're going in!!" message to 

a packet when a switch is thrown.  An inertial switch is cheap (there's 

one in every seat-belt on modern cars), and once the switch is thrown a 

SAR plane can get an immediate GPS fix.

-The devices are cheap, low power, low bandwidth and use an existing an 

infrastructure for communication.



The FAA leadership needs to be informed that their existing plans for 

the next generation of see-and-be-seen is an expensive, heavyweight 

boondoggle.  We have a chance to grow a system from the ground up that 

is effective and provides a benefit to everyone, instead of a burdensome 

set of electronics that is overkill for most GA and would be the straw 

that grounds many aircraft.  Think about it.  If I own an $18,000 Cessna 

that I flew a few sunny days per month, would I be willing to pay 

$10,000 for a set of electronics so I could have a highway in the sky?  

Would $150 be to painful for an ELT replacement?



If someone wants all the gee-whiz, highway-in-the-sky features, a 

satellite download, ala XM-Satellite Weather, is  the proper solution.

jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Your description of how APRS works is basically correct and some of us

have been doing it for years.  Recently there has been a flurry of

interest in the RV community.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Comments?  Potential problems?


	


I have plenty of both  although I'll keep this brief.



Coverage is superb at moderate altitudes (say, 5000 AGL and up) but

varies from superb to non-existent when lower, depending on the

proximity of a ground station and the efficacy of your installation

(mainly the antenna).  My Long-EZ with its full-sized vertical dipole

and 10W of power does well at 12,500 MSL across the wilderness of Idaho

(http://tinyurl.com/5u5klc) but some of the RVers have less success with

horizontally-polarized wingtip antennas and (especially) at lower altitudes.



While it's true that anyone can glean your last reported position,

"obviously superior to our current 'search for the ELT ...'" would

depend on who is "following" your flights.  It's best to find family

members or close friends and train them specifically how to "flight

follow".  Then notify them of proposed flights (Email or phone call

before takeoff).  I've found that people have differing levels of

computer savvy.  What if the web site goes down?  What if they get an

error message?  What if the track stops for no apparent reason?  Younger

people seem to do the better (my daughter calls my cellphone and says "I

see you just landed in Boise" while others say "I forgot the URL for

your tracker" 



My biggest problem is self-induced: sometimes I bump a switch and

accidentally turn off my tracker.  Or I manually turn it off to use the

radio for something else (ATIS, general purpose hamming, etc.).  This

can cause a casual "flight follower" to "freak out".  It would be best

to have a dedicated tracking unit with a guarded switch.  I try to

mitigate this with an FAQ item (http://www.mail2600.com/faq.htm#Crash).



IMO an APRS tracker is a good supplement to the other SAR tools but not

a panacea.  In addition, it's enjoyable from a hobby standpoint: I like

having a record of my flights to include ground speed and altitude.

There is no real downside: the power requirements, weight, and cost are

minimal.  I encourage you to join in but want to be sure your

expectations are right.



--

Joe

Independence, OR

Aircraft Position:   http://www.mail2600.com/position

Aircraft Last Track: http://www.mail2600.com/track

On 11/03/2008 06:25 Lincoln Keill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understand correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked up by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone can continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down, it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing where the path ends.

 

 This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELT that may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering what the downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn't seem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for his wingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtip antenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult.  I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainly consider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I could get a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potential problems?

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

It is a lot like SPOT minus the fairly steep yearly user  fee.

  

 The downside that the repeaters do lose track of the signal  in remote areas..It is pretty reliable for the most part  however.

  

 The other issue is the pilot has to declare a mayday and  the search folks need to know how to go looking for the tracking website...I  have occasionally hit the "track me" link on people's web pages but have never  gotten it to work..I.e I don't know how to see the data.

  

 Oh you also need a Ham radio license.

  

  

 Frank

 RV7a IO360



   From:  owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James  Robinson

Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:22 AM

To:  aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: APRS  for aircraft?

 

            This sounds a lot like SPOT

JimRobinson

Glll         N79R



--- On Mon, 11/3/08, Lincoln Keill        <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

        	  Quote: 	
		  From:          Lincoln Keill <airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>

Subject:          APRS for aircraft?

To:          aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 7:25          AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lincoln Keill<airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net>Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed anAutomatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I understandcorrectly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz which is picked upby ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so anyone

 cancontinuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeingwhere the path ends.This seems to be so obviously superior to our current "search for the ELTthat may not have survived the crash" system that I'm wondering whatthe downside is and why aren't more people utilizing it?  It doesn'tseem to draw much power (the author hooked it up to the power lead for hiswingtip mounted LED position lights) and I'd guess that installing a wingtipantenna that can transmit on 144.39 MHz shouldn't be too difficult. I've got an Archer nav antenna in one wingtip and I'll certainlyconsider installing another antenna in the other wingtip if I thought I couldget a similar APRS system to work in my airplane.  Comments?  Potentialproblems?DO NOT

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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  [quote][b]

rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

APRS is an excellent way of tracking aircraft and other vehicles, however,

there are some limitations:



- You must have an amateur radio license to operate it

- You must be in line-of-sight of a repeater

- It does not work well in sparsely populated or mountainous areas due to

the line of sight limitations.



Despite these limitations, it has tremendous potential.  Fully developed,

(with a separate aviation frequency, expanded ground coverage and

digipeaters in aircraft), this technology would totally outperform ELTs

(both 121.5 and 406) for locating missing aircraft.  It is somewhat

comparable in function to SPOT, but is essentially free and easy to install.

I have no personal experience with SPOT, but the reports that I have heard

are good (but not perfect).



Another advantage is that it is not just for locating the last know position

of an aircraft.  It can be used for many other purposes, such as flight

tracking or reviewing a flight afterwards.



For example, link to here (login as VA7VRL):

http://aprs.fi/?call=va7vrl&mt=m&z=11&timerange=43200

You can click on "Terrain' to get an overlay on a topological map.  A bit

more sophisticated is to click on Google Earth KML [?] and get a 3D overlay

on Google Earth.  



Vern Little

www.vx-aviation.com



[quote] --

bferrell(at)123mail.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

A couple of points.



APRS is free (unlike SPOT), but requires a Ham license, and only works where

there are repeaters or igates available.



Many 401 ELT's can also do position reporting via gps.



Brett



Quoting BobsV35B(at)aol.com:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Good Morning airlincoln,



 Doesn't that sound a lot like the commercial venture called SPOT?



 They sold like hot cakes at Oshkosh this year.



 Happy  Skies



 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Ancient Aviator

 628 West 86th  Street

 Downers Grove, IL 60516

 630 985-8502

 Stearman  N3977A

 Brookeridge Air Park LL22

 In a message dated 11/3/2008 8:30:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,

 airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.net writes:



 Just got  done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an

 Automatic  Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane.  If I

 understand  correctly, the unit transmits his GPS position on 144.39 MHz

 which is

 picked  up by ham radio repeaters and sent to the internet (somehow) so

 anyone can

 continuously monitor the airplane's position.  If the airplane goes down,

 it's a simple matter of pulling up the flight's track history and seeing

 where

 the path ends.



 **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel.  Check out Today's Hot

 5 Travel Deals!




	




--

A ship in harbor is safe -- but that is not what ships are built for.

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Joe Dubner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I've found that people have differing levels of

 computer savvy.  What if the web site goes down?  What if they get an

 error message?  What if the track stops for no apparent reason?  Younger

 people seem to do the better (my daughter calls my cellphone and says "I

 see you just landed in Boise" while others say "I forgot the URL for

 your tracker" 

   

Heh, Joe, wouldn't this best be solved with a note that says "If I don't 
	


show up when I said I would, call 1-800-IAM-DOWN and give them my call 

sign, WL4ME."



Rescue person pulls up the tracking website, and sees that your last 

reported position was over an airport or over a national forest, and 

initiates the proper procedure.  If you did go down, and the inertial 

switch attached an emergency signal to your packet, an overflying 

aircraft could have already picked up and relayed your signal.

rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Already done.  Head over to

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=104.

RF



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Brett Ferrell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 A couple of points.



 APRS is free (unlike SPOT), but requires a Ham license, and only works where

 there are repeaters or igates available.

   



The ham radio license is nearly a non-sequitor.  The FCC has removed the 
	


requirement to know Morse Code.  The study book is now a small pamphlet 

and doesn't require much study at all.

jdubner(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

One would hope so, Ernest.  The technology is certainly possible but,

alas, much of that infrastructure does not currently exist.



Actually, the first instruction I give out is to attempt to contact me

by cellphone (or failing that, by landline at the intended destination).



After loss of contact is deemed not to be a false alarm, the key

questions would be "what to do?" or "whom to call?".



There are plenty of possibilities and blue-skying them is fun but IMO

the current state of the art calls for lowered expectations on the part

of those looking for an ELT replacement.



--

Joe



On 11/03/2008 08:30 Ernest Christley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Heh, Joe, wouldn't this best be solved with a note that says "If I don't 

 show up when I said I would, call 1-800-IAM-DOWN and give them my call 

 sign, WL4ME."

 

 Rescue person pulls up the tracking website, and sees that your last 

 reported position was over an airport or over a national forest, and 

 initiates the proper procedure.  If you did go down, and the inertial 

 switch attached an emergency signal to your packet, an overflying 

 aircraft could have already picked up and relayed your signal.

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Joe Dubner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 One would hope so, Ernest.  The technology is certainly possible but,

 alas, much of that infrastructure does not currently exist.

I agree with what you said, except for a slight modification to the 

above point.  The infrastructure is there, what is missing is 

'awareness'.  For nearly all intents and purposes, the two are the same 

except that building infrastructure is hard, while building awareness is 

easy.  The FAA could fix the awareness issue with one of their 

pamphlets, or a bulletin to their personnel.  Aviation is a small 

community, so word of mouth is highly effective.  It would be easy to 

make sure every CAP chapter has a handheld APRS reciever, and knows to 

ask the question, "Did the pilot carry an APRS transmitter and what was 

his call sign?"  The EAA is doing a good job.  AOPA probably is, too.  A 

simple note specifying a call sign in the remarks field of any flight 

plan filed would assist SAR.

ELTs  were a good idea that was hamstrung by legislation.  The 

technologist had to rush an implementation with existing technology 

under orders from people without any expertise.  APRS is a technology 

that has grown through a consensus of technologist making the most of 

the technology.  I think it is a viral game changer.  It is cheap and 

effective enough that everybody will want at least one 8*)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Actually, the first instruction I give out is to attempt to contact me

 by cellphone (or failing that, by landline at the intended destination).

 After loss of contact is deemed not to be a false alarm, the key

 questions would be "what to do?" or "whom to call?".

 There are plenty of possibilities and blue-skying them is fun but IMO

 the current state of the art calls for lowered expectations on the part

 of those looking for an ELT replacement.

 --

 Joe

 On 11/03/2008 08:30 Ernest Christley wrote:

> 

>     

> Heh, Joe, wouldn't this best be solved with a note that says "If I don't 

> show up when I said I would, call 1-800-IAM-DOWN and give them my call 

> sign, WL4ME."

>

> Rescue person pulls up the tracking website, and sees that your last 

> reported position was over an airport or over a national forest, and 

> initiates the proper procedure.  If you did go down, and the inertial 

> switch attached an emergency signal to your packet, an overflying 

> aircraft could have already picked up and relayed your signal.

>

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: APRS for aircraft?

Having been an advanced class "ham" in high school, I too think

this is a great idea but not ready for prime time.



Several people mentioned already that you need an amateur radio

license to transmit on 2 meters.  The FCC wasn't too fond of one way

data streams either, last time I checked (long ago).



The signal is really just line of sight 95% of the time so in NYC, you

are covered at any altitude, but where there is low ham population

density and high terrain, you could only expect it to work above

typical VFR altitudes.  The repeaters tend to be built on the highest

peaks where electricity is available (one way or another) and 

enough hams on 2 m to foot the bill.  BTW 432Mhz is also popular for

repeaters.

_________________
Ira N224XS

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Lincoln Keill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Just got done reading an EAA article about a guy who built and installed an Automatic Packet (Position) Reporting System on his airplane. 


	


	Here's a good thread on getting started with APRS:

<http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t 7773>



	Once they get the Smart Digipeater function implemented in this device

<http://www.byonics.com/tinytrak4/>, this will make a fairly cheap APRS

option.  The digipeater function will relay packets from other aircraft,

thus extending the range of ground based APRS stations.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ          KR-2 Builder N770DJ

http://deej.net/sportsman/                  http://deej.net/kr-2/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

airlincoln(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Thanks to all who responded.  The link to the Van's Air Force forum was very helpful.  Despite its limitations, I will be installing such a system in the wingtip of my RV-7.  It seems a wonderful complement to an ELT in the event someone needs to come look for me.  Thanks again.  Now I just need to figure out how long that wingtip antenna needs to be...



Lincoln

dale.r(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Hi All,



   Just a small reflection here - not of the standing wave type.  I've 

seen a few messages extolling the virtues of the APRS "system", one of 

which was "it's free".  I would like to remind those who think that way, 

that those repeaters are there because some ARRL members (and maybe some 

Hams who are not ARRL), out of their own pockets, have paid to build 

those repeaters and installed the antennas, and continue to pay to power 

the equipment.  No government fees doesn't mean it's "no cost."  

~Someone~ is paying for it. 



If you are using the system, you might want to find out who's operating 

the repeater you use the most and donate a few bucks to help defray the 

costs of keeping it on the air.



Dale R.

Lincoln Keill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks to all who responded.  The link to the Van's Air Force forum was very helpful.  Despite its limitations, I will be installing such a system in the wingtip of my RV-7.  It seems a wonderful complement to an ELT in the event someone needs to come look for me.  Thanks again.  Now I just need to figure out how long that wingtip antenna needs to be...



 Lincoln

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: APRS for aircraft?

Hi Dale,



Well put!

_________________
Ira N224XS

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: APRS for aircraft?

Nevertheless, APRS works well airborne for those of us who actually use it.



-Bill B



On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 5:54 PM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

  

 Having been an advanced class "ham" in high school, I too think

 this is a great idea but not ready for prime time.

 

 Several people mentioned already that you need an amateur radio

 license to transmit on 2 meters.  The FCC wasn't too fond of one way

 data streams either, last time I checked (long ago).

 

 The signal is really just line of sight 95% of the time so in NYC, you

 are covered at any altitude, but where there is low ham population

 density and high terrain, you could only expect it to work above

 typical VFR altitudes.  The repeaters tend to be built on the highest

 peaks where electricity is available (one way or another) and

 enough hams on 2 m to foot the bill.  BTW 432Mhz is also popular for

 repeaters.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 12155#212155]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 12155#212155[/url]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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