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fuel pump etc

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Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

I'm intending to fit aluminium pipe (and braided nitrile) instead of 

the smelly rubber stuff and am trying to plan the pipe runs from the 

fuel selector area back to the fuel pump. It seems wise to put the 

aluminium pipes in before I stick down the cockpit module, although 

the manual leaves it to much later for the rubber pipes.



The picture on page 6-4 of the 912 FWF manual seems to show that the 

pipe from the selector goes back near the fuselage floor (or perhaps 

higher up at the port side of the tunnel), and that the pipe coming 

forward from the pump runs near the top of the tunnel through the 

tank.



I guess this is all in line with the philosophy of a gradually-rising 

pipe from tank to engine - but obviously it can't quite adhere to 

that throughout.



I don't want to clip a pipe in a position where it will get in the 

way of stuff to be installed later such as the flap actuation 

mechanism.



I plan to install an Andair gascolator, and the obvious place where 

there is some room for that is alongside the pump.



Does anyone have any advice or comments about:



(a) the routing of aluminium pipes from the selector area to the pump;



(b) the location of an Andair 375 gascolator.



Are there any pictures online of the SS502 / 40106 pump (apparently a 

Facet item) or an Andair 375 gascolator installation for a 912s?



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

This is what I did.....



A Good00075x1211625659x1200715650/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=82&bcd=emailfooter"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!

Fuel_Pump_and_Gascolator.JPG

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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

Hi! Rowland

I always have difficulty remembering if you are building trike or Mono?

However I personally would be bothered about stressing the pipework if

you do it prior to stabilizing the module in the fuselage. It must be in

a relaxed mode with flexible mountings.

The Facet pump must be at 45deg to horizontal along the flow line to the

lowest point of the fuel system.

I've used braided rubber throughout and the fuel system module is

mounted on the belly plate where the mono would have been. However I

also have two electric pumps and two mini Andair Gascolators being a

914.

Regards 

Bob Harrison G-PTAG 337



--

bdanbish(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

Hi Rowland,



I spent a lot of time messing with the fuel system and ended up with something I think I'll be happy with. View the album in the gallery at:



http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album164&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=1



Keep in mind that I'm installing a 914 in a mono so it might not apply to your build. This is a series set up using manifolds, 1 from Aircraft Spruce and two from McMaster Carr (I think). It has an Andair fuel selector, gascolator, and check valves. I put everything on removable breadboards in case I've got to get at it later, easily accessible through the baggage bay and I also installed duplicate fuel filters both in the seat pan and back near the pumps (see photos). Overkill for sure, but I plan to run the first 30 hrs or so with this set up then possibly remove the rear filters.



All my work was done AFTER the cockpit was installed since I bought a used kit with that already done. I would have much preferred to do it before the cockpit was in, especially putting the GS fuel fittings into the tanks. As you can see, I had to make holes in the seat areas in order to get those in. Also, I haven't put in a sight gauge. I have the fuel level sender in the tank and a fuel computer that will calculate the flow and return from the 914 into a Dynon D180, so that should do it. I still have the option of adding one later in this set up though.



I had to redo the versatube several times to get it right but it's spot on now. To simplify things, I have the fuel runs running through the cockpit instead of the tunnel, but hoping that won't become an issue (fingers crossed). Everything is versatube where possible, with Gates R9 fuel injection hose used everywhere else as it has a Teflon lining which is supposed to prolong life. The only place I used R7 was the very short run near the pumps where I couldn't find any of that size in R9.



Let me know if you have any questions,



Dan

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

At 2008-10-26 20:29 -0400 DuaneFamly(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  This is what I did.....


	


Mike - thanks for the nice pictures. The layout looks neat ....



But shouldn't the gascolator be ahead of the fuel pump in the sequence?



And all the advice I've seen is that the pump wants to be mounted at 

45 degrees, or at least have its inlet lower than its outlet.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

At 2008-10-27 09:24 +0000 Robert C Harrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I always have difficulty remembering if you are building trike or Mono


	


Bob - I'm a mono.



 	  Quote: 	
		  However I personally would be bothered about stressing the pipework if

you do it prior to stabilizing the module in the fuselage


	


I'm not intending to fix it down yet, just want to get it in roughly 

the right place. I recognise that the aluminium needs to be fixed in 

a non-stressed position and not subject to any movement or vibration.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I've used braided rubber throughout


	


That is great for flexibility and s/s braiding is very robust but 

heavier (and more expensive) than the aluminium, and can't do really 

tight bends.



Thanks for your input.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Wilma & Rowland Carson    http://home.clara.net/rowil/

| <rowil(at)clara.net>          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

Hi! Rowland

Don't know about "ahead" of fuel pump for gascolator. But IMHO in

direction of flow terms the gascolator needs to be between tank and pump

(Of course in this context "ahead" may be the same). The last thing you

need in the pump is unfiltered fuel.

Regards

Bob H G-PTAG

--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

Depends on the type of pump.

A roller-cell pump (914 etc) is very intolerant of dirt (it scores the 

traces in the pump). The shuttle type pump (eg Facet) is far more tolerant.



Both types of pump are much better at pushing than pulling; so any partial 

blockage of a filter on the suction side will test the ability of the pump 

to suck (typically a maximum suction head of 0.6m is quoted for roller cell 

pumps; much of this allowance  can be used up with high flow rates and  the 

tortuous plumbing frequently seen). This is asking for trouble, particularly 

if Mogas is being used.



Duncan McF.

---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

Hi! Duncan

Yes I understand but of course there is generally a "head" assisting the

suction side of the pumps since they are on the belly plate. My reserve

side is my main fall back system but at least the gascolator filters do

allow for quite a volume of contamination before blocking and regular

water drain checks AND gascolator drain checks should give adequate

insurance.

My previous experiences of blockage was the "dog hair and cloth fibres"

in a bad drilling intersection of the Europa Tank Connectors. Now with

Graham Singleton's connectors fitted at least the "crud" gets through to

the gascolators . I'm no longer using the gauze type finger filters but

brass tubular with many holes drilled and deburred so as not to catch

the fibres etc. Still I had the problem with water and rust which I

believe I picked up in Europe. I use white plastic drums to fill locally

with visual inspection of the drum bottom prior to using one of Alan

Burrows electric pumps which doesn't reach the bottom anyway.  

However it still didn't show in the tank water drains. When I ground the

a/c soon for the Mode S fiasco I will have the tank top off and do wipe

out.

At least the gascolators will accommodate a reasonable volume of water

before blocking, if "REASONABLE" IS THE WORD!

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: fuel pump etc

It seems that decreasing the pumping volume in the lines up to the intake of

the pump would speed the fuel through a bit quicker, especially in partially

blocked filter situations (So I wonder if 'tortuous plumbing' could mean:

bigger fuel lines). I am considering a slightly smaller inlet area to the

pumps, than on the output of the pumps. For example: 5/16" aluminum tubing

on the input to the pump, and 3/8" on the output, though haven't verified

the flow rate for the 5/16" yet (at pressure, -intend using 914). 



Originally, I was going to mount the filters under the seat (before the

pumps, to protect them), and the gascolator well 'behind' the pumps in a

typical area, up front by the engine, but have seen a few engine outs due to

fuel starvation of just one filter. One could always switch to the reserve

tank, but in the 'heat of the battle' of takeoff, that could be considered

difficult or dangerous. Now the filters intended position will be moved to

just before each pump (in the series//parallel mode, next to the Andair

check valves), and a water drain/check mounted in the seat well, in place of

where the filter was to originally go.



Rowland, I am currently planning to go the route you were surmising, and

will put 3/8" aluminum in the long runs through the cockpit module (pump to

engine, engine return back to tank). This will obviate the need to replace

the rubber there. The lines are being installed now, before the module gets

cemented in place. I have the Tri-gear, and am running the fuel line roughly

where the manual calls it out, a bit below the top of the center console.

Hopefully, it will be adequate (fingers crossed).



Looking at all the fittings needed (and the lack of), hooking it all

together seems a bit overwhelming. It is hard to find 5/16" of anything

articulate, and many things on the Europa use 5/16". I think the pump needs

a 5/16 to 12mm adapter (from memory, so it may be wrong). The Andair check

valves could use 3/8 or 1/4" fittings, and so on. Don't know what the return

feedline needs from the regulator output. Many options, and also many

limited options. If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of

all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh

so most helpful to me, as I have already pulled out some of my hair . Even

if it isn't the exact way I will be implementing, it would still give a good

idea of what fitting is needed where...

Regards,

Greg Fuchs

A050 XS TRI 914



--

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

At 2008-11-04 02:42 -0800 Greg Fuchs  wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of

all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh

so most helpful to me


	


Greg - here's the list I have prepared so far, for a 912S installation.



Port outlet, tank fitting A, side 1/4" NPT

AN822-6D elbow

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN822-6D elbow

FS20x7F Andair left inlet



Starboard outlet, tank fitting B, side 1/4" NPT

AN822-6D elbow

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN822-6D elbow

FS20x7F Andair right inlet



FS20x7F Andair bottom outlet

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

GAS375 Andair gascolator inlet



GAS375 Andair gascolator drain

DV125 Andair drain valve



GAS375 Andair gascolator primer port

NP125 Andair 1/8" NPT plug (AN913-1D)



GAS375 Andair gascolator outlet

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN6 to 1/8" NPT straight or elbow?

Fuel pump inlet



Fuel pump outlet

AN6 to 1/8"NPT straight or elbow

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN832-6D bulkhead union & AN924-6D nut

101-06 aluminium hose-end straight

100-06 SS braided nitrile hose

Engine-driven pump inlet - 8mm - Speedflow hose finisher clamp



Engine-driven pump outlet - 6mm - what? - to carbs



Carbs fuel return through restrictor + 6mm adaptor?

100-06 SS braided nitrile hose

AN832-6D bulkhead union & AN924-6D nut

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN823-6D elbow

Vent, tank fitting C, side 1/4" NPT



Port outlet, tank fitting A, end 1/8" NPT

AN914-1D elbow

DV125 Andair drain valve



Starboard outlet, tank fitting B, end 1/8" NPT

AN914-1D elbow

Andair drain valve



Port outlet, tank fitting A, side 1/8" NPT

AN842-4D elbow

Restrictor

TU23RM 6mm polyurethane sight tube

AN838-4D bulkhead elbow & AN924-4D nut

Filler moulding top end



Vent, tank fitting C, end 1/4" NPT

AN823-6D elbow

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

3/8" OD aluminium tube

AN819-6D sleeve & AN818-6D nut

AN833-6D elbow & AN924-6D nut

Filler moulding top end



Filler moulding top end

AN833-4D elbow & AN924-4D nut

AN819-4D sleeve & AN818-4D nut

1/4" OD aluminium tube to atmosphere



This is still subject to editing in the light of experience - but I 

hope it will be of some use.



Note that I am planning to leave out the factory-supplied glass 

filters which are intended to be fitted upstream of the selector. My 

thinking is that the filter area in the Andair gascolator is so much 

bigger than the factory ones, and it will be so much easier to check, 

that having 1 filter instead of 2 will not increase risk of fuel 

starvation significantly.



I am also planning to modify Graham Singleton's sight gauge 

modification, by taking the upper end to the filler moulding instead 

of the top tank vent. I've heard reports of fuel coming back down 

from the vent when the tank is filled and causing airlocks in the 

sight gauge.



BTW, apologies for my late responses to the original replies to my 

posting. The Matronics list server suddenly decided to reject my 

messages, thanks to a badly-configured spam filter, and it was 

several days before i could get through again.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1150 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

Hi Rowland,



See responses below:



 	  Quote: 	
		  >If anyone has produced a table, or schematic, or drawing of

>all the different fittings sizes, and where they were used, it would be oh

>so most helpful to me


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  This is still subject to editing in the light of experience - but I 

hope it will be of some use.


	


I am sure it will, and will take a look at this tomorrow. Tonight I have an

election result family gathering to tend to.



I am sure it will, I thought it might be you, that had some info on this,

being one of the more thorough of anyone on the site.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Note that I am planning to leave out the factory-supplied glass 

filters which are intended to be fitted upstream of the selector. My 

thinking is that the filter area in the Andair gascolator is so much 

bigger than the factory ones, and it will be so much easier to check, 

that having 1 filter instead of 2 will not increase risk of fuel 

starvation significantly.


	


Good point. It sounds like a better than factory arrangement. I too, will

not be using the glass filters. They will be replaced however, by two more

filters (yet to be determined), with a very large surface area on its filter

media. They will be downstream of the selector, as well, and each will be

installed on the input to the pump. The Andair gascolator (I plan to install

it near the engine) will be the large one, with increased surface area, as

well. I have not thought it out yet, but plan to have pressure or suction

measurements on both pumps, to provide advanced warning to failure of either

side (pump-filter combos). Unfortunately, there will be 3 filters to tend

to, as opposed to 1. Two though, basically care for themselves (with

real-time feedback), and the other will be checked before each flight, for

water mostly.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am also planning to modify Graham Singleton's sight gauge 

modification, by taking the upper end to the filler moulding instead 

of the top tank vent. I've heard reports of fuel coming back down 

from the vent when the tank is filled and causing airlocks in the 

sight gauge.


	


I decided to skip the glass sight gauge for now, and see how the special

tubing that others have tried (the pvc with Teflon lining inside) works

first. It runs up the seat-back, but final supports for it will come

later(it needs a slightly wider turn radius, to prevent kinking of the

Teflon liner). That seems to be the more simple way, for now. Alternatively,

all of the turns will be replaced with normal multi-fuel capable black fuel

hose, and the 'special' tubing will be only used at the sight area, using

some fittings. 

The site tube connection to the filler tube seems to be a good way to go,

for more than one reason(fuel spillage, air pressure, ?).

ALAN YERLY has some good pics on sight tube location at

customflightcreations.com. It seems to be about the same.

 	  Quote: 	
		  BTW, apologies for my late responses to the original replies to my 

posting. The Matronics list server suddenly decided to reject my 

messages, thanks to a badly-configured spam filter, and it was 

several days before i could get through again.


	


I was delayed too, but I was just busy. Your excuse is a bit better than

mine 



Regards,



Greg F.

XS TRI 914

Rowland_Carson

Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 155
Location: Cheltenham, England

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

At 2008-11-04 19:30 -0800 Greg Fuchs  wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I thought it might be you, that had some info on this,

being one of the more thorough of anyone on the site


	


Greg - thanks for your kind words. Some have been less complimentary 

in their choice of phrase; I got "pernickity" twice at a 

team-building event when folk were asked to pick one adjective for 

each participant. I take comfort, though, from the fact that none of 

them ever complained about me being pernickity when I was 

pre-flighting an aircraft they were shortly to be a passenger in!



Attached as PDF is another way to look at the list of parts, courtesy 

of FileMaker Pro (where I make most of my lists), showing what 

connects to most of the parts. I find doing this sort of list helps 

to highlight any inconsistencies in my planning.



The parts at the top without AN prefixes are from Speedflow, a UK 

supplier of race car plumbing parts.



regards



Rowland

-- 

| Rowland Carson  LAA #16532    http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/

| 1160 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI  e-mail <rowil(at)clara.net>

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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: fuel pump etc

 	  Quote: 	
		  >I thought it might be you, that had some info on this,

>being one of the more thorough of anyone on the site


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Greg - thanks for your kind words. 


	


Sure thing!



 	  Quote: 	
		   take comfort, though, from the fact that none of 

them ever complained about me being pernickity when I was 

pre-flighting an aircraft they were shortly to be a passenger in!


	


Not ever!  #)



 	  Quote: 	
		  Attached as PDF is another way to look at the list of parts, courtesy 

of FileMaker Pro (where I make most of my lists), showing what 

connects to most of the parts. I find doing this sort of list helps 

to highlight any inconsistencies in my planning.


	


I've got it in the print queue. Thanks.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The parts at the top without AN prefixes are from Speedflow, a UK 

supplier of race car plumbing parts.


	


We have a similar supplier here in Portland, OR. I may have to cross

reference.



 	  Quote: 	
		  regards


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Rowland

-- 
	




Thanks again, I appreciate the help, Rowland.



Regards,



Greg

--------



DO NOT ARCHIVE

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