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Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

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Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

The State of Hawaii Legislature (in their infinte wisdom/ignorance) has passed a law that mandates all automotive gas sold in the state after April 1st will consist of 10% ethanol.  This sounds like a nice green thing to do, but from a technical standpoint is bogus.  First thing is that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the gallon of ethanol will produce.  Add to that the fact that a gallon of ethanol has only 75% of the engergy of a gallon of gas, and also has a fuel system damaging affinity for absorbing water.  The whole thing is a feel good tax payer subsidy of the local sugar industry.  End of rant!



Now, the reason for this post is tap some of the great amount of experience on this list.  What kind of experience have you had running a gas/ethanol blend in two stroke engines?  Is the power loss noticible?  Is re-jetting needed?  Have you had problems with water laden fuel gumming up the carbs?



Maybe "Sea Foam" will solve the whole problem.

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_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

grageda(at)innw.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

Hi Dave,

I work in the recreational boating industry and have seen first hand what 

alcohol and water can do to fuel systems.



Gasohol is not a good thing. The alcohol in gasoline can damage rubber 

components in your fuel system, i.e the diaphragm in the fuel pump for one 

example.



It might cost a bit more but, you may have to use 100LL av-gas to stay away 

from the alcohol. This my require a re-jetting of the carb, slightly leaner 

I believe.



If you must use gasohol then I suggest you check your fuel system components 

very frequently to make sure the rubber parts of your plane are in good 

condition. The gasohol will attack the rubber parts and cause little bits of 

rubber to break off and clog your fuel system.



I imagine you have to fly over water alot because of your island location. 

Avgas may be your only practical solution to keep your peace of mind over 

water.



Good luck

Carlos G.



---

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ultrastarrick(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

Hi I work on 2 stroke race motors and have discover that the ethanol cleans the oil from the bearings a little to good and most of the time causes abnormal wear.

   

   

  Dave Bigelow <up_country(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  



The State of Hawaii Legislature (in their infinte wisdom/ignorance) has passed a law that mandates all automotive gas sold in the state after April 1st will consist of 10% ethanol. This sounds like a nice green thing to do, but from a technical standpoint is bogus. First thing is that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than the gallon of ethanol will produce. Add to that the fact that a gallon of ethanol has only 75% of the engergy of a gallon of gas, and also has a fuel system damaging affinity for absorbing water. The whole thing is a feel good tax payer subsidy of the local sugar industry. End of rant!



Now, the reason for this post is tap some of the great amount of experience on this list. What kind of experience have you had running a gas/ethanol blend in two stroke engines? Is the power loss noticible? Is re-jetting needed? Have you had problems with water laden fuel gumming up the carbs?



Maybe "Sea Foam" will solve the whole problem. 



--------

Dave Bigelow

Kamuela, Hawaii

FS2, Rotax 503 DCDI





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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

In Arizona we have had that fuel for many years now and it is used during the winter months. They are now going to get rid of it from what I hear. I have used this for many years and you should not notice any difference. When I had my Rotorway 162F helicopter they recomended that we not use it because Rotorway thought it was hard on some of their seals and rubber parts. Didn't seem to make a difference. I use it now in my 912S. In Arizona they switch back to the regular fuel during the warmer months.

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Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
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Cell 520-349-7056

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

I'm finding more and more on the subject of blended ethanol/gas as I go - most of it not good.  Here's a very good research paper done by Onan Engines in Australia that Jim Baker recommended:



http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/review-non-automotive/pubs/review.pdf



Here's what Rotax has to say:



*OXYGENATES (ALCOHOL ADDITIVES) ARE TO BE AVOIDED, ANY VOLUMES OVER 5% CANNOT BE USED. TESTING FOR ALCOHOL IS THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO BE SURE YOUR FUEL IS O.K. FOR USE IN YOUR ROTAX. A SIMPLE TEST KIT FOR DOING THIS IS AVAILABLE THROUGH AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTORS OF MOGAS FOR AIRCRAFT. CONTACT YOUR LOCAL EAA FOR YOUR NEAREST MOGAS DISTRIBUTOR. THE ILL EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL IN YOUR ENGINE ARE AS FOLLOWS; THE ALCOHOL WILL ATTRACT WATER, THIS CAN CAUSE YOUR SEDIMENT TRAPS TO FLOOD, PLUG FILTERS AND RESTRICT FUEL FLOW. ALSO, AND VERY IMPORTANT, THE ALCOHOL COMPETES DIRECTLY WITH THE LUBRICATION, AND DEPENDING ON YOUR OILS ABILITY TO COMBAT SUCH, COULD CAUSE ENGINE DAMAGE IMPORTANT ALSO IS THE ALCOHOL CARRIES WATER WHICH ON ENGINE SHUT DOWN AND STORAGE CAN CREATE CORROSION ON VITAL ENGINE PARTS SUCH AS CRANK MAIN AND ROD BEARINGS AS WELL AS PINS. ONCE CORROSION PITS HAVE STARTED, THE BEARINGS WIU FAIL SHORTLY AFTER. *SEASONAL BLEND CROSSOVERS CAN EFFECT YOUR FUELS VOLATILITY IF YOU USE A WINTER BLEND FUEL DURING A HOT SUMMER DAY. THIS IS A COMMON OCCURRENCE WITH PEOPLE WHO BUY A FUEL BLEND IN COLDER CLIMATES IN MARCH, BUT DON'T USE IT IN THEIR ROTAX UNTIL JUNE. EVAPORATION TEMPERATURES OF YOUR FUEL MUST BE LOW ENOUGH TO MINIMIZE CRANKCASE AND COMBUSTION CHAMBER DEPOSITS AS WELL AS SPARK PLUG FOULING WITHOUT FEAR OF VAPOUR LOCKING OR BOILING. ALWAYS MAKE SURE YOU BUY YOUR FUEL FROM A HIGH VOLUME USER, AND AVOID FUELWHICH HAS BEEN IN STORAGE FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME, ESPECIALLY BETWEEN SEASONS. LOSS OF OCTANE RATING IS A COMMON PROBLEM ON FUEL STORED INCORRECTLY, WHICH COULD LEAD DIRECTLY TO ENGINE STOPPAGE.



Guess my only choice here in Hawaii will be to use avgas - any tips regarding the use of avgas in 2 stroke engines?

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Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

Dave,



I have the same choice and I have tried both. LL100 costs over a dollar more than auto gas, and it fouls the plugs in 20 hours. Currently, I am using auto gas with 10% ethonal. At least I have oil injection. That might help some.

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John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

I'm finding more and more on the subject of blended ethanol/gas as I go -

most

of it not good.  Here's a very good research paper done by Onan Engines in

Australia

that Jim Baker recommended:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I will throw this out and see what ya all say bout it.



The simple test for alcohol in gas is fill a test tube 1/2 with water and

mark the level on the outside.  Then fill the remainder of the test tube

with gas.   Shake it up and let it settle.   If there is alcohol in the gas

the level of the water will go up from the mark. The difference will be the

amount of alcohol that was in the gas.   Now if you pour the gas off  the

top, you should have alcohol free gas. With a water alcohol mix left over.



If this principle works??????   You could use a 50 gal test tube. And render

out 20 to 25 gal at a time.  



Alcohol should attract an equal amount of water before it will separate out

of the gas.,,,,   10% of say 50 gal should be 5 gal....   you would probably

want to start with 10 to 15 gal of water then fill the 50 gal test tube (

DRUM )  with gas.   If you prop the tank up on edge and siphon out the water

from the bottom till the gas starts to run clear. Using the last bit to

start your next batch. You should be left with the good stuff.



My daughters father-in-law,  drives a 18 wheeler gas carrier, and tells me

that the storage tanks where he gets his gas will have 2 ft of water in the

bottom...  but when they fill his truck they draw the fuel out at the 5 ft

level.   Now if they were using alcohol in the gas this would not work.

Also when they pump petroleum products through underground pipelines they

use thousands  of gallons of water to separate the different grades of fuel.

When the operator sees the difference in color he will switch the fuel from

one tank to the other.  and the water will separate out in the bottom if the

large storage tanks.



Maybe it is easier to buy av gas or av gas mixed 50/50 with mogas.  That

would take a 10 % mix down to 5%.



Worth every cent you paid fer it.



Boyd

Do not archive.

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Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

Interesting idea, Boyd.



I wonder if the water grabs all the alcohol, or leaves some behind.  I remember reading about this test 15 or 20 years ago in Untralight Flying magazine when "gasohol" was the rage.  Actually, the idea of using a 50 gallon drum to separate out a supply of real gas might just work.



So, the question remains about what to do with the ethanol/water mixture left over?  Could you drink it?  Perhaps you could sell it to the "Sea Foam" company?

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Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Ethanol/Gasoline Mixture

Interesting idea, Boyd.



I wonder if the water grabs all the alcohol, or leaves some behind.  I

remember

reading about this test 15 or 20 years ago in Untralight Flying magazine

when

"gasohol" was the rage.  Actually, the idea of using a 50 gallon drum to

separate

out a supply of real gas might just work.



So, the question remains about what to do with the ethanol/water mixture

left over?

Could you drink it?  Perhaps you could sell it to the "Sea Foam" company?



--------

Dave Bigelow

Kamuela, Hawaii

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


I would be quite sure the ethanol would be de natured.  So I would not drink

it.  maybe you could sell it back to the gas station.  however a contract

with the fine folks at SF would be good if the shipping cost did not run

more than the purchase price.  maybe they could find a use for it.



Seriously,,,   the amount of alcohol it would remove would depend on the

contact time and the level of mixing.  If you could pick up the container

and give it a good shake I am sure it would separate faster/more completely.

I have thought that if you could find a half gallon of 10% ethanol gas and

pour into 16 gal of gas  dropping the % of ethanol to less than 1%.  That

way it would remove any condensation that may have accumulated in the fuel

system.   And hopefully it would not affect the components in the carb.



Boyd

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