Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rotax 912UL no start

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rcsfca

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 10
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Rotax 912UL no start

Well, brainiacs, I've got a puzzle for you in the Rotax ignition department.



We last flew the KF (a 1993 Model IV - 1200) in June/08, ten hours of flying over two days, from Arizona to its new home in the San Francisco Bay Area. Wonderful flying, no hiccups. Fuel was and still is 100LL. The plane and engine now have 273 hours TT (yes, it's that low, but we know its history very well, so there's no issues about misrepresented use, etc.). 



Until last Saturday, neither the plane nor the engine had moved since June. We had it in the hangar, working on the gear and the brakes. I also installed a Battery Minder from VDC in July but that was the only electrical/mechanical change involving the power system.



Last Saturday, we rolled it out, topped off the 100LL, and she started after 20 or 30 seconds of engine-turning but ran rough, as though running on less than 4 cylinders. After about a minute or so, we shut it down and it hasn't started since, and we're goin' nuts trying to figure it out. Cranking, cranking, cranking. Lots of battery but no start. 



Fuel system is solid - I opened the float bowl on each carb and they were full of fuel. We tried a bit of starting fluid in each carb throat. No luck. 



I looked at the plugs on two of the cylinders and both were very good looking, light tan with no signs of fouling, and the electrodes were very square with no wear.



I then got a spark plug wire tester to see if there was any juice getting to the plugs and the tester indicated NO spark. I then looked carefully at the ignition module wiring to see if there were any apparent wiring problems like bad grounds. Nothing was evident. 



So now I have to turn to the forum for insights and others' experience. Do the ignition units go belly up without warning? Am I overlooking something? Ideas? 



Thanks,



Rich Cunningham

SF Bay Area

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Rotax 912UL no start

Rich, I have a 4/1200 classic built in 93 myself. I've been  flying a lot of cross countries this summer. I only use 93 auto gas when local,  but on CC's I use 100LL. I'm having hard start problems the last 4 starts. I  spin prop and it seems there's no compression on 1 or 2 cylinders. Today I put 8  ounces per 10 gallons of Marvel mystery in my gas and 6 ounces in my oil res. I  think my prob was stuck valves as I have read on here before.  Our Rotax  motors don't seem to like leaded fuel. If you know it's an ignition problem i'm  off base here, but if you're searching, try what I did and it may work.   After I flew 150 miles today, I let the plane sit for a couple hours. (while I  ate my hot dog and hamburger) When I fired it back up (5'th start) It was  pumping up all cylinders and ran like a dream. I'm happy with my results...  Steve Bennett  4 classic 1200 speedwing 965hrs and loving my little  bird.  Oh ya, I live in NC   Durham NC

  

  In a message dated 10/4/2008 8:30:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  r66rc-matronics(at)yahoo.com writes:

 [quote]-->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "rcsfca"    <r66rc-matronics(at)yahoo.com>



Well, brainiacs, I've got a puzzle    for you in the Rotax ignition department.



We last flew the KF (a 1993    Model IV - 1200) in June/08, ten hours of flying over two days, from Arizona    to its new home in the San Francisco Bay Area. Wonderful flying, no hiccups.    Fuel was and still is 100LL. The plane and engine now have 273 hours TT (yes,    it's that low, but we know its history very well, so there's no issues about    misrepresented use, etc.). 



Until last Saturday, neither the plane nor    the engine had moved since June. We had it in the hangar, working on the gear    and the brakes. I also installed a Battery Minder from VDC in July but that    was the only electrical/mechanical change involving the power    system.



Last Saturday, we rolled it out, topped off the 100LL, and she    started after 20 or 30 seconds of engine-turning but ran rough, as though    running on less than 4 cylinders. After about a minute or so, we shut it down    and it hasn't started since, and we're goin' nuts trying to figure it out.    Cranking, cranking, cranking. Lots of battery but no start. 



Fuel    system is solid - I opened the float bowl on each carb and they were full of    fuel. We tried a bit of starting fluid in each carb throat. No luck. 



I    looked at the plugs on two of the cylinders and both were very good looking,    light tan with no signs of fouling, and the electrodes were very square with    no wear.



I then got a spark plug wire tester to see if there was any    juice getting to the plugs and the tester indicated NO spark. I then looked    carefully at the ignition module wiring to see if there were any apparent    wiring problems like bad grounds. Nothing was evident. 



So now I have    to turn to the forum for insights and others' experience. Do the ignition    units go belly up without warning? Am I overlooking something? Ideas?    



Thanks,



Rich Cunningham

SF Bay Area





Read    this topic online    -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS               - List Contribution Web Site                            [quote][b]

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

brucejolene(at)iowateleco
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: Rotax 912UL no start

Check for loose wires at the ignition module.  You might check wires going 

to and from your mag switches.  I had a similar problem and it was loose 

wiring connections.



Bruce

Kitfox III



---

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

kitfoxfugit(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: Rotax 912UL no start

"rcsfca" <r66rc-matronics(at)yahoo.com>



Assuming 912UL, 273 hrs, ran fine in June, sat since, won't start cold.



I leave mine sit a lot as I use it mainly to go places from time to time.  I always pull it through slowly and a lot by hand before starting to get the oil up out of the cylinders and into the sump.  Never turn it backwards.  Sometimes residual oil will have to burn out, but you will see the blue smoke.



Once I had a problem with the ignition switches being off.  Another time, it was a low battery, be sure it is fully charged.  Another time, one choke was not set right, be sure they both work when you pull the knob.  Also be sure the throttle is closed completely to make suction for the "choke" to work, the springs could be opening it some.  Then when it starts get it up to around 2200 RPM or so right away to avoid gearbox chatter.  Sometimes in hot weather it does not want to be choked for a cold start.  One time when attempting a start soon after a long trip, it was vapor locked even though the fuel line was wrapped.



The type and presence of air cleaners has made a difference on mine.  It starts and runs best with the big air cleaner on the carb heat box.  I don't think you are supposed to use starting fluid.  100LL should not spoil on you like Mogas but even Mogas should last 4 months.  I always run TCP when I have to use 10LL, a guy in Tracy has it, I think it is called Declan chemicals or something like that.  I leave mine with 100LL or stabilizer in it when I know it will be sitting.



Changing the plugs is cheap and can make it start and run better, especially after a lead diet.  Be careful checking for spark, shorting them can be an $800 mistake with that ignition system.  Lockwood has a video you should watch before trying to operate it if you are not used to Rotaxes.  Rotaxes are good engines, but you can't operate them like Continentals or Lycomings.  You have to learn what they need.



JA KF IV Speedster 912UL (at) O70

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

rcsfca

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 10
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax 912UL no start

Even though several months have passed since you heard about the problem, it was not actually solved until 10 days ago. We tried each of the numerous suggestions that were offered but in the end, I had to have a technician from California Power Systems, the western U.S. distributor for Rotax, come out to my hangar (at Concord, CA (CCR) ) and go through the problem.



Up to that point, I put a lot of attention on the battery (new Odyssey plus an aviation-designed trickle charger from VDC) and the fuel. Neither changed the no-start although the cranking was top-notch!



When the tech came out, he took about an hour, with instruments to determine that both of the Ducati ignition modules were not working, but for different reasons. One of them was completely out of service and had to be replaced. The other had corrosion on several of the leads buried in that wiring stack that sits next to the modules. The corrosion was cleaned up, and guess what happened? It started immediately (and continues to start immediately), within seconds of cranking. We re-balanced the carbs and the work was done. The Ducati unit was $800 and the labor (welcome to California) was $400.



In a way, I wish the problem had been something that you Kitfox detectives cleverly knew about and could have been fixed without the tech (and without the $1200 parts and labor) but the plane is 15 years old now and, well, you know how it goes. At least we don't have to haul our planes out of the water every year and scrape barnacles off the bottom...



Thanks again,



Rich Cunningham

Model IV-1200  912UL

SF East Bay (CCR)

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Rotax 912UL no start

True Rich... I pull mine out of the water after every flight and never get the barnacles   The pond i launch form has an altitude measured in single digit feet.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C95022.7CFD8770[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

912 almost installed  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

- The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

image001.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

7.29 KB

Viewed:

5349 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum