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Delamination

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dogsbark(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Delamination

Okay composite experts....I need your help, please. 

  

I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.  Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.  Also, there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl. 

  

Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934   If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail. 

  

I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill them?  Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue could this be? 

  

Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth trying.   

  

Thanks for any help or recommendations. 

  

Sean Blair 

#40225

 [quote][b]

Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: Delamination

Sean,

  

 Give me a call (#  below).  The things you mentioned are feasible, but might not be  necessary.

  

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 

 831-750-0284 CL

 www.AirCraftersLLC.com

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  dogsbark(at)comcast.net

Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 9:09  PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RV10-List:  Delamination

 

  



Okay composite experts....I need your help, please. 

  

I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.   Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on  the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are  delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation  inside or out, but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in  these areas when looking from the outside.  Also, there is a small dab of  filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl. 

  

Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934    If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail. 

  

I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to  this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around  to fill them?  Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the  substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue  could this be? 

  

Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth  trying.   

  

Thanks for any help or recommendations. 

  

Sean Blair 

#40225

[quote]



3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Delamination

Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delaminated. I would disagree C these areas in the pictures look as though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin. 



This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.

Thanks for the pictures C it will give others what to look for before starting in on a fiberglass part.

JOhn Gonzalez



Date: Sat C 29 Nov 2008 05:08:57 +0000

From: dogsbark(at)comcast.net

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Delamination



   .ExternalClass p {;} 

Okay composite experts....I need your help C please.

  

 I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.  Much to my disappointment C I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation inside or out C but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.  Also C there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.

  

 Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934   If you double click the photos C you can get a closer look at the detail.

  

 I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill them?  Or C do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue could this be?

  

 Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth trying.  

  

 Thanks for any help or recommendations.

  

 Sean Blair

 #40225



 [quote]

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[b]

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Delamination

I would request a replacement from Vans. They are usually quite good about things like this, and even if you get it "fixed" it may delaminate further in the near future necessitating a replacement. This could be quite costly and now you have a template. What is your build number so that those in the same group can check theirs??

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: Delamination

I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as they received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting the whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours and hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> wrote:

Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin.  



 This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.

 



 Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before starting in on a fiberglass part.

 



 JOhn Gonzalez



  Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 05:08:57 +0000

From: dogsbark(at)comcast.net

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Delamination



 

Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.

 

I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.  Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.  Also, there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.

 

Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934   If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail.

 

I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill them?  Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue could this be?

 

Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth trying.  

 

Thanks for any help or recommendations.

 

Sean Blair

#40225



 	  Quote: 	
		  

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





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____________________________________________________________ 

[url=_blank]Find success and happiness with drug and alcohol rehabilitation. Click now.[/url]

  [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Delamination

Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of received goods.  Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea.  If you need directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the process.  The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from the newer pink panther version two .  All builders should look at their First Generation Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have production DELAM.  The Second Generation Pink production parts seem to have a slight improved product, mold and final finish.  

   

I can feel Sean's pain.  Thank goodness it was not found after the final topcoat was applied.  

   

John C  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh(at)netzero.com

 Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Delamination  

  

   

I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as they received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting the whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours and hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to..  

do not archive

 

 

 Ben Haas

 N801BH

 www.haaspowerair.com

 

 -- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> wrote:

 Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin.     

   

    

This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.  

    

   

    

Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before starting in on a fiberglass part.  

    

   

    

JOhn Gonzalez      

  

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 05:08:57 +0000

 From: dogsbark(at)comcast.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Delamination    



 Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.

  

 I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.  Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.  Also, there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.

  

 Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934   If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail.

  

 I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill them?  Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue could this be?

  

 Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth trying.  

  

 Thanks for any help or recommendations.

  

 Sean Blair

 #40225  

  [quote] [b]

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Delamination

Hi John  

   

Would you post the “tap test” instructions? It would be a good thing to have in the archive.  

   

Cheers  

   

Les  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox

 Sent: November-30-08 1:44 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination  

  

   

Visual inspection of all VAN parts is SOP along with inventory of received goods.  Tap Testing of composite parts is a wise idea.  If you need directions, on how to Tap Test, write me and I will forward the process.  The old Blue/Green composite material is far different from the newer pink panther version two .  All builders should look at their First Generation Blue/Green components to make sure they do not have production DELAM.  The Second Generation Pink production parts seem to have a slight improved product, mold and final finish.  

   

I can feel Sean's pain.  Thank goodness it was not found after the final topcoat was applied.  

   

John C  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh(at)netzero.com

 Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:20 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: Delamination  

  

   

I agree with John on this completly. Vans should have examined this as they received it from their vendor and for sure not shipped it to the end user. From the pics it looks like Sean has spent alot of time fitting the whole assembly nicely. Even if Vans does replace it Sean has hours and hours of rework time. Not what a homebuilder looks forward to..  

do not archive

 

 

 Ben Haas

 N801BH

 www.haaspowerair.com

 

 -- John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> wrote:

 Delamination suggests that it was at one time laminated and became delaminated. I would disagree, these areas in the pictures look as though they where never laminated. Looks as though the vacuum did not pull the honeycomb down onto the outside skin.     

   

    

This is a quality control issue and IMOO should have never been received by Van's from their fabricator let alone sent on to you from Vans.  

    

   

    

Thanks for the pictures, it will give others what to look for before starting in on a fiberglass part.  

    

   

    

JOhn Gonzalez        

  

  

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 05:08:57 +0000

 From: dogsbark(at)comcast.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Delamination    



 Okay composite experts....I need your help, please.

  

 I just got the engine cowl fit to the plane after many hours of work.  Much to my disappointment, I noticed a "crunching" noise in a few spots on the upper cowl if I leaned on them.  A total of four handsized areas are delaminating.  There are other small areas as well. There is no deformation inside or out, but a clear void is there.  The honeycomb is not visible in these areas when looking from the outside.  Also, there is a small dab of filler on one of the voids that was there when I received the cowl.

  

 Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934   If you double click the photos, you can get a closer look at the detail.

  

 I have zero experience with composites.  Is there a solution to this that's feasible?  Can I inject epoxy into the voids and work it around to fill them?  Or, do I need to remove these areas down to the substrate and then build them back up?  How much of a structural issue could this be?

  

 Of course I don't want to start over.  Anything reasonable is worth trying.  

  

 Thanks for any help or recommendations.

  

 Sean Blair

 #40225  

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dogsbark(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Delamination

Hey everyone, 

  

Thanks so much for the assistance both on the phone and through the list.  Your efforts are appreciated. 

  

I will lean toward a replacement cowl.  For now, I think just the top....but I wonder if there may be thickness differences or any other tollerence issues mating the green and the pink halves together.  Did Van's change vendors altogether?  M&W does the green one I have. 

  

I agree with John Gonzalez's thought of the problem occurring during production.  It seems not enough vacuum was present to make all areas establish proper contact and remove all voids.  There is no deformation though.  Only the exterior displays this degree of seperation.  It's still puzzling to me that there is a nickel size area of filler directly above one of the largest voids.  

  

My build number is 40225.  I purchased the entire airframe, with finish kit, within a year of my start date of May 2004.  John Cox's advise of visual inspection of all parts being SOP prior to construction is a good idea.  I've been fairly good about this....I guess not this time. 

  

Well....I'll move on from here. Does anyone know where I can get pink microbaloons in case the second one doesn't turn out as well?   

  

Thanks again everyone! 

  

Sean Blair 

#40225 

Colorado Springs...snowing 



---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Delamination

I am at work till 0700Z.  A quick look in the AC43.13 that you all have handy on the workbench shows the passage as Section 8 "Tap Testing" and listed as paragraph 5-105 to be found on page 5-53.  The document is available on the web for those that don't like the 8 pound tree trunk sitting around.

  

 I will cut and paste into a PDF file unless someone beats me to it.

  

 Caveat - I have seen tapping so strong handed that the simple US quarter can leave dents into the outer substrate.  Learn to Lightly tap on a good area to establish the acoustic ring.  Move to the offending area and you will never forget a void, defect, water or other occlusion.

  

 Good Luck



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of dogsbark(at)comcast.net

Sent: Sun 11/30/2008 3:23 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Delamination

    

Hey everyone, 

  

Thanks so much for the assistance both on the phone and through the list.  Your efforts are appreciated. 

  

I will lean toward a replacement cowl.  For now, I think just the top....but I wonder if there may be thickness differences or any other tollerence issues mating the green and the pink halves together.  Did Van's change vendors altogether?  M&W does the green one I have. 

  

I agree with John Gonzalez's thought of the problem occurring during production.  It seems not enough vacuum was present to make all areas establish proper contact and remove all voids.  There is no deformation though.  Only the exterior displays this degree of seperation.  It's still puzzling to me that there is a nickel size area of filler directly above one of the largest voids.  

  

My build number is 40225.  I purchased the entire airframe, with finish kit, within a year of my start date of May 2004.  John Cox's advise of visual inspection of all parts being SOP prior to construction is a good idea.  I've been fairly good about this....I guess not this time. 

  

Well....I'll move on from here. Does anyone know where I can get pink microbaloons in case the second one doesn't turn out as well?   

  

Thanks again everyone! 

  

Sean Blair 

#40225 

Colorado Springs...snowing 



---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: Delamination

For those who do not sleep and eat with the AC43.13 next to their bed or table:  

   

Our Qualification Test for NDI or NDT, had the applicant tap test a sample of composite honeycomb about 8" x 6" x 0.6250" and identify the various pitch changes.  This included an area of resin rich, resin lean, delaminations like in Sean's cowl, a potted stainless insert and an area of crush damage to the honeycomb underlayment.  The applicant could not see the underside until after marking with a grease pencil the virgin topside for scoring.  Abarus in Nevada is the best in the West for Professional Composite Training at a high price tag.  

   

In actual practice we are looking in the field for delamination, moisture penetration and separation of differing materials.  One of the big challenges was a void in the adhesion of Nickel Sheathing on the leading edge of Composite propeller blades.  Another was significant water infiltration through the porosity of natural topcoat epoxy paint under the engine area.  We are now using Thermography and Acoustic Ultrasound techniques to find errant moisture. Sorry to those of you who are bored with such things.  

   

For the rest of the RV-10 community, a careful study of Sean's great pictures is enough to drive home the potential of exterior BID separation from honeycomb.  If in Northern California, sign up for Dave Saylor's next class and "Press to Test" on the subject.  This is a big help in composite products.  

   

John Cox  

   

   

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney

 Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:54 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Delamination  

  

  

   

Hi John  

   

Would you post the “tap test” instructions? It would be a good thing to have in the archive.  

   

Cheers  

   

Les  

       



  

 Pictures are at:  http://websites.expercraft.com/seanb/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=32934

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