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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Well, here's the first one. Getting a wee bit hot. Any of you NSI chaps on
the list still? I have the std NSI radiator and also an Earls heater
radiator hooked to the heater circuit and goes through the water to oil
cooler and turbo. Oil temp is good around 90degs C but water's getting to
110+ and looses a bit of coolant and the pressure drops (I have a 10 psi
pressure switch and light).I have an intake in the lower cowl and a plnum
leading back to the radiator.
I've read on the SOOB list that some of the early NSI radiators were
defective? Anyone heard of this problem? John A.
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew!
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:04:14 -0800
John,
Your last comment reminded me of my reaction during the early hours. I
couldn't believe how well it flew. I still have those feelings from time to
time and I am definitely on a bit of a high after every flight and that
after a lot of flights.
Keep the reports coming.
Lowell
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trebla(at)directinter.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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I am running a turbo nsi. Yes, cooling was a big problem. Is your nsi
radiator a deep aluminum? The one for the turbo is much larger than the
stock nsi radiator. I had to whack my cowl up and put in scoops and exit
vents. Plus I put cowlings on both of the radiators, oil and water. I also
blocked off the smiley cowl intake. The last flight all was good. It was
around 85 deg. outside during the test. Do you have pics of your install?
Albert Smith
5TD NSI Turbo
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bmwebb(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Having just gone through this cooling thing myself, I'll relate what I
learned (and it's the same thing anyone else will tell you). This process
will take several iterations before you get what you like. Make absolutely
sure that there are no air leaks in the cowl. This got me, and I'm still
fighting it. You might try playing with different exit scoop shapes, and see
if that helps.
Basically, ensure that whatever air goes in the cowling, goes through your
rads, and then out the exits. No place else.
I made a system work that a few told me wouldn't. It can be done. It just
requires that you revisit it with new ideas and attention to detail to get
it right.
Mine works, but I'm in the SDS position right now. I feel I'm right on the
edge of acceptable, and it can be better. Still working it out, little by
little.
"You're never done: you just stop working on it."
Bradley
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Ah, the rad I have is brass, got it from them in 97?? Yopu say they are
aluminium now? Perhaps I only have the std one? John
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:20:43 -0700
I am running a turbo nsi. Yes, cooling was a big problem. Is your nsi
radiator a deep aluminum? The one for the turbo is much larger than the
stock nsi radiator. I had to whack my cowl up and put in scoops and exit
vents. Plus I put cowlings on both of the radiators, oil and water. I also
blocked off the smiley cowl intake. The last flight all was good. It was
around 85 deg. outside during the test. Do you have pics of your install?
Albert Smith
5TD NSI Turbo
Read the latest Hollywood gossip (at) http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Thanks Bradley, I like your last. ("You're never done: you just stop working
on it.") Yes, I'm getting the feeling I'm just at the beginning, altho going
on the numbers, nearly there (I hope) John
From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb(at)cox.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 20:48:42 -0500
Having just gone through this cooling thing myself, I'll relate what I
learned (and it's the same thing anyone else will tell you). This process
will take several iterations before you get what you like. Make absolutely
sure that there are no air leaks in the cowl. This got me, and I'm still
fighting it. You might try playing with different exit scoop shapes, and see
if that helps.
Basically, ensure that whatever air goes in the cowling, goes through your
rads, and then out the exits. No place else.
I made a system work that a few told me wouldn't. It can be done. It just
requires that you revisit it with new ideas and attention to detail to get
it right.
Mine works, but I'm in the SDS position right now. I feel I'm right on the
edge of acceptable, and it can be better. Still working it out, little by
little.
"You're never done: you just stop working on it."
Bradley
--
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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I'll get photos and send tomorrow John
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:20:43 -0700
I am running a turbo nsi. Yes, cooling was a big problem. Is your nsi
radiator a deep aluminum? The one for the turbo is much larger than the
stock nsi radiator. I had to whack my cowl up and put in scoops and exit
vents. Plus I put cowlings on both of the radiators, oil and water. I also
blocked off the smiley cowl intake. The last flight all was good. It was
around 85 deg. outside during the test. Do you have pics of your install?
Albert Smith
5TD NSI Turbo
Read the latest Hollywood gossip (at) http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1040642128
Here is a shot of my air inlet and the radiator can just be seen. John
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:20:43 -0700
I am running a turbo nsi. Yes, cooling was a big problem. Is your nsi
radiator a deep aluminum? The one for the turbo is much larger than the
stock nsi radiator. I had to whack my cowl up and put in scoops and exit
vents. Plus I put cowlings on both of the radiators, oil and water. I also
blocked off the smiley cowl intake. The last flight all was good. It was
around 85 deg. outside during the test. Do you have pics of your install?
Albert Smith
5TD NSI Turbo
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trebla(at)directinter.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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That one will not work. The aluminum one is twice as large. I like the way
you did your cowl. I was to far in by that time and the cooling was very big
problem. I just had to calc. frontal area and exit area and built some cowls
around the radiators. If I had to do it again and knew now what I do I would
put in what you did. You will need to move a lot of air and get rid of the
turbo and exhaust heat inside the cowl best you can. I will look around for
some pics of my mess that finally worked so far and put them on sportflight.
Albert
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trebla(at)directinter.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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I messed up the download and the pics are in add ons and mods. I built the
cowl out of aluminum and foam.
Albert Smith
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Thant's an aluminium radiator is it Albert? John
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 00:32:01 -0700
That one will not work. The aluminum one is twice as large. I like the way
you did your cowl. I was to far in by that time and the cooling was very big
problem. I just had to calc. frontal area and exit area and built some cowls
around the radiators. If I had to do it again and knew now what I do I would
put in what you did. You will need to move a lot of air and get rid of the
turbo and exhaust heat inside the cowl best you can. I will look around for
some pics of my mess that finally worked so far and put them on sportflight.
Albert
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband (at)
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
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bmwebb(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Yeah, it'll work out. Keep spending those brain bytes. You'll get a solution
before you know it.
BTW, congratulations.
Bradley
--
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trebla(at)directinter.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Yes it is. I was sent the standard one first, which I still have. Before I
installed the firewall forward NSI sent the much larger aluminum one. NSI
also failed to mention that it would need an oil cooler. That was added
later with a remote oilfilter, that also gets air flow over it. I have no
thermostate on the oil system. It runs through the radiator all the time.
Albert
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Albert, I have an oil to water cooler and an extra small cooling radiator
plus the oil sump has cooling pipes and fins and sees an airflow. Oil temp
is good, but I think I might need that larger main radiator. John
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 11:29:38 -0700
Yes it is. I was sent the standard one first, which I still have. Before I
installed the firewall forward NSI sent the much larger aluminum one. NSI
also failed to mention that it would need an oil cooler. That was added
later with a remote oilfilter, that also gets air flow over it. I have no
thermostate on the oil system. It runs through the radiator all the time.
Albert
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband (at)
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Hi John,
What out side temps are you commonly flying in now?
What engine temps are you seeing in flight?
What will be the highest temp you would want to fly
in?
Those are needed to know whaty to design for.
One of the problems with the smiley face opening is
that it is in a very low pressure area of the cowl.
The ram air effect is hardly able to overcome the low
pressure outside due to the curve of the cowl. This
area is like the upper surface of the wing, except
inverted, and made worse by the side curve of the cowl
too. Very low pressure results. The air inside of the
cowl is usually under higher pressure from the front
inlets. This allows the lower outlet to work. It may
not be so with your inlet to outlet pressure for your
radiator.
With a smiley face inlet, the pressure at the back of
the cowl where you want the air to go out is actually
at higher pressure, so the air almost wants to reverse
flow in and come out the smiley face! The smiley face
is not the best inlet air location we can get.
When I first flew my NSI powered S-5 it was just cool
enough outside to handle it. That was in the 60's F
range. I have the big alum. radiator but a slightly
smaller oil cooler than standard. My initial problem
was oil temps going high (235F), so I added more
airflow and can now handle into the low 90's to keep
the oil below 220F or so. I did this by enlarging the
smiley face to 1.5" and directing all the flow to the
oil cooler, which is below the firewall. It works
pretty good in flight, but gets hot taxiing a long
time.
My radiator temp was the next problem. It was OK into
the 70's, but draggy hanging out by itself. I added a
scoop and gained 9 mph, but still have to work on
making it run comfortably above 90F and while on a
long taxi. The exhaust size from my scoop is critical
in keeping the temps down, but I am looking at adding
VG`s in front of the scoop to see if that will help
too. The scoop takes in boundry layer air and that is
messed up quite a bit.
Your scoop inlet up front looks pretty good, but as I
said, that is a low pressure area. The outlet should
ideally be in a lower pressure area than the inlet.
Neither of us have the ideal. You might want to make
up 3 VG sets and tape them in front of your inlet
about half way up to the prop to see if that helps.
It is a very easy fix that need not be perminent until
you know that it works.
After that, you may need to add an outlet door that
increases the opening when needed. That will be my
next step after the VG's too.
I learned about using the VG's from a canard with NACA
scoops to the engine that was overheating. VG's saved
the day for him.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: | Here is a shot of my air inlet and the radiator can
just be seen. John
|
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trebla(at)directinter.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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That is a good explaination on the smiley face. I tapped mine up because it
just took air in and back out. Flowed over and around nothing. So to improve
the inlet to outlet ratio blocking it was the logical solution. I tested my
cowling flows with a water hose behind the prop and infront of the
radiators. That is when I saw the airflow going around the radiators and
some going in the back. That is when I put the cowlings on. That made a big
difference. There are actually bugs hitting the radiator now.
Albert Smith
5TD NSI turbo
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Hmm Kurt, I thought that area is still pretty high pressure still where I
have the inlet and where the radiator is is low pressure. If you look at the
cowel around that area, thats were all the bugs hit and that's usually hight
pressure. The plenum area to the radiator is seperate from the engine air
except for the lower part of the sump (cooling piped and finned) and this
sees the radiator air also. My temps are oil, around 190 F approx (we all
C here) and water water 210F approx 110C. I also have an Earls heater
cooler also in the heater circ which is hooked to the water/oli cooler and
turbo. I've opened the exit area to the main cowl a bit so hope this will
enhance the airflow to this radiator and help the intercooler as it exhausts
into this area. The OAT is around 23c. John
From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:25:18 -0800 (PST)
<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>
Hi John,
What out side temps are you commonly flying in now?
What engine temps are you seeing in flight?
What will be the highest temp you would want to fly
in?
Those are needed to know whaty to design for.
One of the problems with the smiley face opening is
that it is in a very low pressure area of the cowl.
The ram air effect is hardly able to overcome the low
pressure outside due to the curve of the cowl. This
area is like the upper surface of the wing, except
inverted, and made worse by the side curve of the cowl
too. Very low pressure results. The air inside of the
cowl is usually under higher pressure from the front
inlets. This allows the lower outlet to work. It may
not be so with your inlet to outlet pressure for your
radiator.
With a smiley face inlet, the pressure at the back of
the cowl where you want the air to go out is actually
at higher pressure, so the air almost wants to reverse
flow in and come out the smiley face! The smiley face
is not the best inlet air location we can get.
When I first flew my NSI powered S-5 it was just cool
enough outside to handle it. That was in the 60's F
range. I have the big alum. radiator but a slightly
smaller oil cooler than standard. My initial problem
was oil temps going high (235F), so I added more
airflow and can now handle into the low 90's to keep
the oil below 220F or so. I did this by enlarging the
smiley face to 1.5" and directing all the flow to the
oil cooler, which is below the firewall. It works
pretty good in flight, but gets hot taxiing a long
time.
My radiator temp was the next problem. It was OK into
the 70's, but draggy hanging out by itself. I added a
scoop and gained 9 mph, but still have to work on
making it run comfortably above 90F and while on a
long taxi. The exhaust size from my scoop is critical
in keeping the temps down, but I am looking at adding
VG`s in front of the scoop to see if that will help
too. The scoop takes in boundry layer air and that is
messed up quite a bit.
Your scoop inlet up front looks pretty good, but as I
said, that is a low pressure area. The outlet should
ideally be in a lower pressure area than the inlet.
Neither of us have the ideal. You might want to make
up 3 VG sets and tape them in front of your inlet
about half way up to the prop to see if that helps.
It is a very easy fix that need not be perminent until
you know that it works.
After that, you may need to add an outlet door that
increases the opening when needed. That will be my
next step after the VG's too.
I learned about using the VG's from a canard with NACA
scoops to the engine that was overheating. VG's saved
the day for him.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: | Here is a shot of my air inlet and the radiator can
just be seen. John
|
Become a fitness fanatic (at) http://xtramsn.co.nz/health
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Yes, smiley face....My inlet area is about one third of the radiator area
which I read is about the right ratio?? And bugs sure do hit the inlet area
and the radiator gets full of grass on the front so I'm pratty sure the flow
is there but I'll try your hose trick Albert. I'll put so shots on
Sportflight tonight. John A.
From: "Comp User" <trebla(at)directinter.net>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 20:29:08 -0700
That is a good explaination on the smiley face. I tapped mine up because it
just took air in and back out. Flowed over and around nothing. So to improve
the inlet to outlet ratio blocking it was the logical solution. I tested my
cowling flows with a water hose behind the prop and infront of the
radiators. That is when I saw the airflow going around the radiators and
some going in the back. That is when I put the cowlings on. That made a big
difference. There are actually bugs hitting the radiator now.
Albert Smith
5TD NSI turbo
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Sorry Kurt, I wrote this below in a rush but I think you'll get my gist. I
uploaded so shots at
http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=1142915948.
John
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:23:18 +1200
<janderson412(at)hotmail.com>
Hmm Kurt, I thought that area is still pretty high pressure still where I
have the inlet and where the radiator is is low pressure. If you look at the
cowel around that area, thats were all the bugs hit and that's usually hight
pressure. The plenum area to the radiator is seperate from the engine air
except for the lower part of the sump (cooling piped and finned) and this
sees the radiator air also. My temps are oil, around 190 F approx (we all
C here) and water water 210F approx 110C. I also have an Earls heater
cooler also in the heater circ which is hooked to the water/oli cooler and
turbo. I've opened the exit area to the main cowl a bit so hope this will
enhance the airflow to this radiator and help the intercooler as it exhausts
into this area. The OAT is around 23c. John
From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: It Flew! Cooling.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:25:18 -0800 (PST)
<smokey_bear_40220(at)yahoo.com>
Hi John,
What out side temps are you commonly flying in now?
What engine temps are you seeing in flight?
What will be the highest temp you would want to fly
in?
Those are needed to know whaty to design for.
One of the problems with the smiley face opening is
that it is in a very low pressure area of the cowl.
The ram air effect is hardly able to overcome the low
pressure outside due to the curve of the cowl. This
area is like the upper surface of the wing, except
inverted, and made worse by the side curve of the cowl
too. Very low pressure results. The air inside of the
cowl is usually under higher pressure from the front
inlets. This allows the lower outlet to work. It may
not be so with your inlet to outlet pressure for your
radiator.
With a smiley face inlet, the pressure at the back of
the cowl where you want the air to go out is actually
at higher pressure, so the air almost wants to reverse
flow in and come out the smiley face! The smiley face
is not the best inlet air location we can get.
When I first flew my NSI powered S-5 it was just cool
enough outside to handle it. That was in the 60's F
range. I have the big alum. radiator but a slightly
smaller oil cooler than standard. My initial problem
was oil temps going high (235F), so I added more
airflow and can now handle into the low 90's to keep
the oil below 220F or so. I did this by enlarging the
smiley face to 1.5" and directing all the flow to the
oil cooler, which is below the firewall. It works
pretty good in flight, but gets hot taxiing a long
time.
My radiator temp was the next problem. It was OK into
the 70's, but draggy hanging out by itself. I added a
scoop and gained 9 mph, but still have to work on
making it run comfortably above 90F and while on a
long taxi. The exhaust size from my scoop is critical
in keeping the temps down, but I am looking at adding
VG`s in front of the scoop to see if that will help
too. The scoop takes in boundry layer air and that is
messed up quite a bit.
Your scoop inlet up front looks pretty good, but as I
said, that is a low pressure area. The outlet should
ideally be in a lower pressure area than the inlet.
Neither of us have the ideal. You might want to make
up 3 VG sets and tape them in front of your inlet
about half way up to the prop to see if that helps.
It is a very easy fix that need not be perminent until
you know that it works.
After that, you may need to add an outlet door that
increases the opening when needed. That will be my
next step after the VG's too.
I learned about using the VG's from a canard with NACA
scoops to the engine that was overheating. VG's saved
the day for him.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
>Here is a shot of my air inlet and the radiator can
>just be seen. John
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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Hi John,
With those temps and OAT, you might get what you want
from just changing to the big alum radiator. That
should be an easy change for you if you can get your
hands on one.
Your pics show a lot of great work and invention by
you. You deserve to see that plane fly embarrassingly
well. Sorry if your friends with store bought
planes won't talk to you after riding in your's later.
Ha ha
If you take a side picture of your complete plane and
turn it upside down as in inverted flight, you can
suddenly see where the front of the cowl is a high
lift (low pressure) area. We are used to seeing this
on our wings, but the air doesn't know right side up
from inverted, so we miss seeing what the air is doing
here because of our point of view. We tend to think
of lift only going up, but it doesn't.
Bugs show you dynamic pressure, but not static
pressure. In this place on the cowl the 2 are in
conflict.
VG's would net you a little more dynamic pressure, but
the bigger radiator might take care of it all.
I also have my radiator air and cowl air seperated and
agree that is the best route for cooling.
Got to go to work now. Hope you can get an alum
radiator and fly it in confidence from then on.
Kurt S.
--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Quote: |
John
Hmm Kurt, I thought that area is still pretty high
pressure still where I
have the inlet and where the radiator is is low
pressure. If you look at the
cowel around that area, thats were all the bugs hit
and that's usually high
pressure. The plenum area to the radiator is
seperate from the engine air
except for the lower part of the sump (cooling piped
and finned) and this
sees the radiator air also. My temps are oil, around
190 F approx (we all
C here) and water water 210F approx 110C. I also
have an Earls heater
cooler also in the heater circ which is hooked to
the water/oli cooler and
turbo. I've opened the exit area to the main cowl a
bit so hope this will
enhance the airflow to this radiator and help the
intercooler as it exhausts
into this area. The OAT is around 23c. John
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wingsdown(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: It Flew! Cooling. |
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