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Kitfox dead stick practice

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edgraydallas

Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Dallas, Tx

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Interesting posts on "dead stick" practice.  My K II is still 2-3 months

from completion so this is all theoretical now.  I am glider rated and would

probably practice engine off landings on a big glider field near Dallas.  My

question re engine cooling (582);  do you shock cool the engine more with a

long glide at idle (folks say the 582 likes a 2000 rpm idle) or by turning

the engine off and stopping the prop?  Are 582s typically easy to air start

with electric starter?  And, has anyone devised wing tip extensions to

increase the l/d of a Kitfox?  Removing the tips and plugging in a 5 foot

tapered extension would be an easy mod if you like to tinker.  Finally, do

the KF II flaps function as well as an air brake to keep engine temps up?

The air brake I have in mind is a simple flap mounted on the aft float

brackets activated by a pull cable.  Since I fly a turbo Mooney, I rely a

lot on my air brakes.  Good views on the list!



Do not archive

Ed Gray, Dallas, KF II 582 nearing completion



--

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

The 582 is liquid cooled... if your thermostat is functioning properly then shock cooling is not an issue.  I dont see a need to speed brakes.  If you want to drop like a rock, pull the nose up to about 50 mph and 2500-3000 rpm and she falls outa the sky.  I did lots of T&G's the other day at 0 degrees with no issues.  I have a clutch on the prop so I just pull the power back to idle and fly it in.  A touch of power will arrest decent rate just before touchdown.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Leonard C I know there has been discussion not too long ago about the pros and cons of a clutch. You have one so I'd imagine you like having a clutch. Are there any differences or pros that become cons or visa versa with warm and cold weather flying with a clutch and the 582?

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford C IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

 From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Mon C 15 Dec 2008 12:26:06 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

 

 The 582 is liquid cooled... if your thermostat is functioning properly then shock cooling is not an issue. I dont see a need to speed brakes. If you want to drop like a rock C pull the nose up to about 50 mph and 2500-3000 rpm and she falls outa the sky. I did lots of T&G's the other day at 0 degrees with no issues. I have a clutch on the prop so I just pull the power back to idle and fly it in. A touch of power will arrest decent rate just before touchdown.

 

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.

 

 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219492#219492

 

 

&gt==============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

The pros, dang near everything.  Startup and warm up is super smooth becuase you are not turning that big prop.  The engine if perfectly happy with a 1500-1800 RPM warm up with no shaking.



The one and only con that is always in my head is the fact that I cant prop the engine should I find myself in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery.  I just make sure I don't go out alone to real remote spots and shut it down.  I am thinking about tossing a small solar panel in the emergency gear bag just for giggles.. I need tail weight anyway.

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Ed,

I say forget the air brake.  Kitfoxes (kitfoxii?)  are pretty draggy to

start with and besides, they love to slip.  Slipping is at least as good as

the air brakes on the glider.



Randy



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Well Leonard, there is that engine-out, freewheeling prop scenario that's got to be a disadvantage. I've got the clutch and I love it except for that one nagging what-if. Has anyone ever dead-sticked a 582 with the prop clutch? I'm gonna try it someday but I don't really want to go first. 

  

 Also, at least in my case I've found it impossible to adjust the idle below 2400 rpm, but that's a whole other discussion.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



--- On Mon, 12/15/08, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 4:47 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"

<akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>



The pros, dang near everything.  Startup and warm up is super smooth becuase

you are not turning that big prop.  The engine if perfectly happy with a

1500-1800 RPM warm up with no shaking.



The one and only con that is always in my head is the fact that I cant prop the

engine should I find myself in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery.  I

just make sure I don't go out alone to real remote spots and shut it down. 

I am thinking about tossing a small solar panel in the emergency gear bag just

for giggles.. I need tail weight anyway.



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry

Soldotna AK

Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1260

As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.



hander outer of humorless darwin awards





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19502#219502





	
	


         [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

if you pull the power off, and the nose up the prop will disengage and the engine goes back to a 1600 rpm idle.  At that point for all practical purposes, you are dead stick as the prop and engine are no longer a functioning team... 



Don't worry you wont be the first to do it, I do it all the time.



If you come back in with power it will re-engage without all the nasty (theoretic) side effects that were brought up in the other thread.  At some point, one must stop thinking about possibilities (time to get a dig in at inquiring engineering minds LOL) and go for it, 99% of the time the nightmares you dream up don't really happen, if you are a lucky one percent'er, then you get to enjoy the dead stick skills you have not practiced, so it really does become an emergency instead of a semi routine senario.



Weather permitting, I will take the bird out tomorrow and video the nice smooth cold weather start, an in air disengagement and subsequent landing as well as an in air re-engagement of the prop without the engine being ripped from the mounts or gear box departing the plane.

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Lenny,

 

How does your airplane fly with the prop and engine disengaged? What's the sink rate at best glide speed? That's what this inquiring mind wants to know.

 

At idle (2500 rpm, 50-55 indicated) I lose 200-300 ft/min. That's gotta change considerably for the worse with the prop disengaged. Because of my intractably high idle speed, dead stick practice means shut down and re-start

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

Flying dead stick is really no different than if the engine/prop are running at idle. Yes there is a little difference of course, but it shouldn't be an issue for anyone that can fly his Kitfox on any other day.



The engines with the prop clutch, free wheeling prop at idle, has much more drag than a prop that stops and stays still. Their glide ratio is reduced compared to a normal none moving prop.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Roger,

  

 It's clear there will be a drop-off (literally) in glide performance from a free-wheeling prop that's disengaged from any substantial mechanical resistance. Question is, how much?

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch



--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:42 AM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Lee"

<ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>



Flying dead stick is really no different than if the engine/prop are running at

idle. Yes there is a little difference of course, but it shouldn't be an

issue for anyone that can fly his Kitfox on any other day.



The engines with the prop clutch, free wheeling prop at idle, has much more

drag than a prop that stops and stays still. Their glide ratio is reduced

compared to a normal none moving prop.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.

Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

Rotax Service Center

520-574-1080





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19583#219583





	
	


         [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:51 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

At 06:22 AM 12/16/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  How does your airplane fly with the prop and engine disengaged? 

What's the sink rate at best glide speed? That's what this inquiring 

mind wants to know.


	


I got 450 fpm sink at 50 MIAS at 1180# in my IV with the prop 

disengaged and no flaps. Interestingly I got the same value, but 5 

MIAS slower for full flaps. At a lighter weight I got 400 fpm sink 

just above stall.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

I  would add 300-500 FPM sink rate. If you do not think that is significant add it  to a normal 500 at acceptable glide and it gets your attention right away.   Especially if that engine does not start. I can spell pucker.  

  

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

   --

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

Oh, that's plenty significant alright. Explains my reticence to trailblaze. My engine routinely starts very easily but then there's always Murphy's law. One question, Rick: Do you write from personal experience or is the additional 300-500 f/m a guess?



 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch

 

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Rick <wingsdown(at)verizon.net> wrote:



 [quote]From: Rick <wingsdown(at)verizon.net>

Subject: RE: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 12:06 PM



  I would add 300-500 FPM sink rate. If you do not think that is significant add it to a normal 500 at acceptable glide and it gets your attention right away.  Especially if that engine does not start. I can spell pucker. 

  

  

 Rick

 [quote] 

 --

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

That  was a real world event. I could easily pull power to idle, set my airspeed by  AOA and come down 500 too 600. But with the prop free wheeling, what a shock. I  guess if I had that number in mind when I was looking for the emergency landing  spot it would not have been such an attitude adjustment. I made it to the area I  had in mind just not where I had hoped to be. If I still had a prop that could  free wheel I would make some type of a device to mechanically stop it in an  emergency decent. Or a smart person could make some type of auto prop pitch  control that would put the prop flat. I kind of like the mechanical idea myself  since I think I could do that. It might not always be an issue given the area  you have to work with. 

  

  

  

 Rick

 

 --

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

 	  msm_9949(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  Lenny,

ï¿½

How does your airplane fly with the prop and engine disengaged? What's the sink rate at best glide speed? That's what this inquiring mind wants to know.

ï¿½

At idle (2500 rpm, 50-55 indicated) I lose 200-300 ft/min. That's gotta change considerably for the worse with the prop disengaged. Because of my intractably high idle speed, dead stick practice means shut down and re-start 	




I was not paying much attention to that today, but I can tell you that freewheeling it is a significant amount of drag.  If I am remembering correctly, it was about 650 fpm at 60 mph IAS, GPS said 45 ground speed.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

 	  edgraydallas wrote: 	
		   And, has anyone devised wing tip extensions to

increase the l/d of a Kitfox?  Removing the tips and plugging in a 5 foot

tapered extension would be an easy mod if you like to tinker.  

-- 	




That is a really neat idea, I think that would be great for slow flying and sightseeing around the local area.   I have seen removable wingtips done on a motorglider, one set for cruise, and one set for soaring, and it works very well.  I might have to try that on my Kitfox one day !!!  Bending force on the wing spars would be increased a lot, so you would have to watch your G loadings and turbulence very carefully.  But I would not think it would be a problem if for smooth flying in normal weather conditions.



As far as air brakes, definitely not need on this class of airplane.  If you want to get down point the nose down, let the speed come up and you will be dropping at an incredible rate.  A kittfox is not at all like a Mooney, the Mooney will approach VNE pretty quick with the nose pointed down,  with the kitfox, you can descend at a much steeper angle compared to the Mooney without exceeding VNE.   The Kitfox is a very light, not anywhere near the potential energy with altitude compared to a Mooney, and lots more drag.   



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

 	  Quote: 	
		  edgraydallas wrote:

  >  And, has anyone devised wing tip extensions to

  > increase the l/d of a Kitfox?


	


To which Mike replied:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I have seen removable wingtips done on a motorglider, one set for 

cruise, and one set for soaring...


	


This is a factory option on the Series 5 'foxes and later.  The 

outboard bay on each side could be built to be removable, giving you 

the choice of 32 feet or 29 feet of wing (with some limits on maximum 

gross weight, originally, when using the short wing).  The shorter 

version (without the removable extensions) was also found on the 

Model IV Speedster.



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

The early Vixon with the short wing had a limited gross weight of 1200 lbs and a gross weight off 1400 lbs with the long wing.  This was due to the 80 hp Rotax which did not have enough power for the short wing.  Not so with the 912S which came later and made the later model's usable with the Rotax.

 Clint Bazzill

  Date: Wed C 17 Dec 2008 22:37:58 -0700

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From: MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net

 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 >edgraydallas wrote:

 > > And C has anyone devised wing tip extensions to

 > > increase the l/d of a Kitfox?

 To which Mike replied:

 >...I have seen removable wingtips done on a motorglider C one set for 

 >cruise C and one set for soaring...

 This is a factory option on the Series 5 'foxes and later. The 

 outboard bay on each side could be built to be removable C giving you 

 the choice of 32 feet or 29 feet of wing (with some limits on maximum 

 gross weight C originally C when using the short wing). The shorter 

 version (without the removable extensions) was also found on the 

 Model IV Speedster.

 Mike G.

 N728KF C Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

 Phoenix======================

&gt===

 	  Quote: 	

  [quote][b]

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice

I'm from the old Ultralight days starting in 1980. I got used to engine outs just like others did. It was really a non-event unless there was no place below to land. We even did them in our Ultralight games and if you didn't come within 5' of the line with the mains you didn't even place in the top 4. Some talk about loosing 400-500 ft. a minute. When I was flying helicopters doing auto rotations we would loose 1400-1700 ft. a minute. It really doesn't matter what the altitude loss is, it is just a matter of what you get used to. You keep the airspeed up and round out at the bottom like you are supposed to then the landing is just a normal every day landing. It pretty much proves out in all the data from over 30 years. It doesn't matter if it was an Ultralight or any other plane. If you had practiced or been in other real dead stick situations then those people tended to make a no damage or little damage landing verses the people who had never had an engine out or practiced real dead sticks. The people used to them were calm and relaxed while the others tended to panic and make bad decisions. Once you see the plane flys just like it always did and all you had to do was lower the nose more then it was a piece of cake. Then its time to practice hitting a target and get within 5-10 ft. of the target. It is actually not that hard when you learn to relax. You will also learn how to judge distance better during the practice.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Kitfox dead stick practice

I have to agree that practice is definitely a factor is a good outcome to

any emergency situation.  However simulated or actual does not seem to

change the #.  I thing you should check your stats.  From my experience

pilots that practice real engine off landing are just adding another

exposure to their risk factor and the accident reports agree.  Too many

pilots never practice the basic emergency procedures. This is an

unacceptable situation for any aviators.  But causing and emergency

situation in the name of practice is definitely not an acceptable act

either.

PS  you don't need 10000 hours and military training to figure this out.  

All you have to do is write a few hundred accident reports. 





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