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Fox5flyer
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 Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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Actually, they worked fine, even in some fairly deep snow. The airplane only weighed about 520 pounds, roughly the same as many typical snowmobiles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
[quote] From: patrick reilly (patreilly43(at)hotmail.com)
To: kitfox matronics (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
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Fox5flyer
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about 4' long
and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on ebay for less than
$30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I was in dire straits to go
somewhere, I think my airplane would just stay in the hangar. I had no
problem in six to eight inches of snow, but drew the line there.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
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Fox5flyer
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them in 12"
snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between that and ice.
At one time there were people who said "If man were meant to fly, he'd have
wings".
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
---
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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We've got about 10" right now, as of yesterday when I flew, and I'd
draw a dotted line at about that height, maybe making it a solid line
at 12" or more. I hope the new snow sticks around until I get new
skis built, or I'll have to travel much further to test them. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
| Quote: |
<fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about
4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on
ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I
was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just
stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of
snow, but drew the line there.
Deke Morisse
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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This looks like a perfect time to throw in this that I found during
my Google search for "airplane skis" :
*********************
The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) report MM-225, Aircraft
Ski Research in Canada, discusses the comprehensive research
programme aimed at the development of improved skis for aircraft and
provides information about the use of skis. The following paragraph
paraphrases relevant portions of the publication:
Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and adhesion
were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the design of
the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed continually
and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking place in less
than an hour. The publication notes that there are times when the
sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that it is impossible
to reach flying speed. It was found that the sliding resistance of a
ski could be divided into (a) the resistance component due to
compacting the snow while forming the ski track, analogous to form
drag in aerodynamics, and (b) the resistance component due to
friction. In the case of dry snow, the ski resistance is considered
to be made up of (a) solid friction, most of which occurs near the
toe of the ski, (b) viscous drag due to shearing in the very thin
film of water between the ski and the areas of contact, and (c) drag
due to surface tension forces acting at the perimeters of the water
drops in contact with the ski bottom. In very wet snow, the entire
bottom of the ski is wet and most of the resistance is due to viscous
drag, which varies as the square of the speed. All three components
of ski friction -- solid friction, viscous drag, and surface tension
drag -- increase with an increase in contact between the ski and snow
and are therefore greater for soft snow than for hard snow.
********************
Sorry I can't credit who wrote it, or where I found it, as I was just
searching and grabbing whatever seemed to be of interest to me.
Perhaps if I knew where to find the NRC report MM-225.....
I think this makes it sound like any ski is the right ski of the
conditions for it are right, or very wrong if the conditions are wrong.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote:
[quote]
<fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>
That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them
in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between
that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were
meant to fly, he'd have wings".
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
---
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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akflyer
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Snowmobile Skis |
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I can't go into theory on why one works and why one doesn't (if you get an engineer involved you just end up with a SWAG) All my knowledge is based on real life experience, in many different planes, with many different ski manufactures and designs. I can say, without hesitation, that I will take a larger ski any day of the week over a smaller ski, for deep snow. On ice, or hard pack it does not matter, you could get away with tiny skis, but you veer off just a tad and hit the powder and you are gonna have lots of time to think about building bigger skis as you strap on your snow shoes and spend half a day packing down a runway to get yourself back outa some remote area you dropped into and were not equipped to deal with.
A Buddy put his PA12 on its back and we had to form a rescue party to go get him and the plane. One PA12 was on Anderson board skis (plywood skis with Teflon bottoms that are quite large), one was on airglass 2000's (nice fiberglass ski but smaller than the Anderson's) and a 180 on little bitty federal skis. Snow was only about 3' deep and the board skis did AWESOME, the Airglass performed well but not quite as good, and the 180 was a major PITA. I spend half the time pushing and pulling on the tail of the 180 trying to get him turned around at the end of the strip... then he could not build flying speed to get off so we ran the 12 up and down to try and pack it. Didnt work because of the large surface area it just stayed on top and did not really compress the snow. At the end of the day we ended packing the runway on snowshoes.
As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work...
Check out supercub.org The hot ticket for skis are a set of airglass that you put on new bottoms 2" wider than the ski all the way around, why? because the increased flotation is worth alot more than a little bit of drag. Friction on top of the snow is a whole lot less than having the ski buried , the prop hitting snow, and the gear legs dragging through the snow.
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DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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Deke C Jeesss C I guess I opened up a can of worms. It is obvious that your snow machine skis won't handle deep powder by looking at them. That is why I asked what your experience with them was. Anyway keep us posted on the snowboard to ski project. I'm going to keep my eye out for a matched pair. too.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Snowmobile Skis
Date: Sun C 21 Dec 2008 07:58:11 -0500
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Actually C they worked fine C even in some fairly deep snow. The airplane only weighed about 520 pounds C roughly the same as many typical snowmobiles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory C but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
[quote] From: patrick reilly (patreilly43(at)hotmail.com)
To: kitfox matronics (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday C December 20 C 2008 10:34 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
Tom C That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow C or will they?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
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ronics.com
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Snowmobile Skis |
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I thought I said they worked fine, but maybe I imagined it? I didn't build them for 3' of snow, nor did I build my airplane to fly 600 miles per hour or have a 2000lb useful load. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I built them for a model 2 with a pretty good idea of their limitations and I used them with those limitations in mind. I never had a problem over three winters and lots of snow time. I'm still kicking myself for letting them go with the airplane when I sold it.
Naysaying doesn't help the experimental movement at all.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Quote: "As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work..."
[quote][b]
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