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gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest
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 Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: CHT's |
 |
|
Lynn FYI
yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and the head.
My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're around 260.
Regards and Merry Christmas
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
20/12/2008 09:12 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com cc
Subject
Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
(added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
much...damn!
Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. 
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
Yeah, apparently it doesn't take very much of a location change to
bring about different CHT numbers. And if you have the thermocouples
bent up...into the airstream...they go even lower. Mine were reading
in the mid 300's (location is right against the head, out of the
airstream) yesterday during flight. This is about 75° F higher than
from previous readings, positioned where the factory said to position
them.
Merry Christmas, Gary, and to all.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 19, 2008, at 7:12 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Lynn FYI
yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
(Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
the head.
My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
around 260.
Regards and Merry Christmas
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
this message by persons or entities other than the intended
recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
20/12/2008 09:12 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
(added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
much...damn!
Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
============================================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
Gary and Lynn,
As I remember Lynn’s temp actually read higher with his new placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get four hours or so of work in, but I’m not too productive. My son has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having. It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the ground. Now it doesn’t transmit at all. It receives beautifully. The problem is he doesn’t want to work on the radio, he wants to fly.
Jim Crowder
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: CHT's
Lynn FYI
yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and the head.
My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're around 260.
Regards and Merry Christmas
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
20/12/2008 09:12 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
(added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
much...damn!
Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
============
--
Gifts!)
on
about
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
============
Forum -
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
============
WEB FORUMS -
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
down onto the head...by about 75°. This is because when the
thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75°
difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
| Quote: | Gary and Lynn,
As I remember Lynn’s temp actually read higher with his new
placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
four hours or so of work in, but I’m not too productive. My son
has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
ground. Now it doesn’t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
The problem is he doesn’t want to work on the radio, he wants to fly.
Jim Crowder
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: CHT's
Lynn FYI
yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
(Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
the head.
My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
around 260.
Regards and Merry Christmas
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
this message by persons or entities other than the intended
recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
20/12/2008 09:12 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
(added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
much...damn!
Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
============
--
Gifts!)
on
about
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
============
Forum -
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
============
WEB FORUMS -
============
http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
============================================================ _-
============================================================ _-
============================================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
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|
jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
| Quote: | You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
|
That's exactly what I plan to do with the one temporarily unmodified sensor
I will retain. I will of course report my numbers and I expect to confirm
your results. At least on the bench, my Grand Rapids monitor's output is
read my HP tablet computer and charted by Excel and working nicely when I
heat the sensors with a heat gun. I bit the bullet and purchased Microsoft
Pro 2007 Office so as to now own Access data base software. I also export
the data now to the data base program along with Excell's chart display.
Again along with Vista's moving map GPS driven software, my computer is able
to run all at the same time. My Russian software allows me to control the
sampling rate from the engine monitor. To keep all working, I now only use
one out of twenty of the output data packages. That amounts to seven
complete data sets in ten seconds. Before when I was using Excell 2003
instead of the new 2007, I was able to use fourteen sets of data in the ten
seconds. In my case that means the new Excell 2007 adds more overhead! The
database file while appearing huge when displayed, is small compared to jpeg
picture files.
What I am getting at is I believe I will have scientific data to provide
anyone interested. Each data set is time stamped with date and time down to
the second. I plan to keep these files on an external hard drive or perhaps
a compact disk for historic comparison as the engine ages. If I hadn't been
fooling around with the computer programs so long, I might be now flying.
I do have a handheld radio my son could use but it is also the one I have
been using to do our radio check calls. I have been completely re-wiring
my cockpit with the new engine install basing it on the design suggestions
of Bob Nuckolls. I'm doing a wiring drawing as per my as-built install by
downloading AutoCAD format files of Bob's basic drawings he thoughtfully
provides on his WEB page. I no longer have AutoCAD software, but I do have
Turbo cad which can read the files and convert them. In any case with
another few hours of work, I should be able to power-up a partial panel and
have my aircraft radio also working. That will then free-up the hand-held
for Mark's use. His RV8 is a screamer under the one person aboard rules of
the fly-off period.
Jim Crowder
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
Hi Lynn
You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so that it was reading directly from the head itself.
Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific location. I haven't found it yet.
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
21/12/2008 02:36 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com cc
Subject
Re: Re: CHT's
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
down onto the head...by about 75°. This is because when the
thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75°
difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Gary and Lynn,
>
> As I remember Lynn’s temp actually read higher with his new
> placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
>
>
>
> My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> four hours or so of work in, but I’m not too productive. My son
> has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> ground. Now it doesn’t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> The problem is he doesn’t want to work on the radio, he wants to fly.
>
>
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: CHT's
>
>
>
>
> Lynn FYI
>
> yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> the head.
>
> My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
>
> Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> around 260.
>
> Regards and Merry Christmas
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
> 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
> To
>
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
>
> We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
> Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> much...damn!
> Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
> got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
>
> ============
> --
> Gifts!)
> on
> about
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ============
> Forum -
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> ============
> WEB FORUMS -
> ============
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> =================================== _-
> =================================== _-
> ===================================
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you
only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if
installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they
are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug
and screwing down so that the probe is against the head.
If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul
with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and
perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of
the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory
suggests...removing the (%$#(at)*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto
the plug, then replacing the (%$#(at)*&?+*# ) washer, and installing
the plug.
It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is
a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized
terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with
a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again.
You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT
readout...mine were about 75° higher, and probably a lot more
accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze".
I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark
plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take
the washer off....(%$#(at)*&?+*# ) them!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Lynn
You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of
guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched
between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so
that it was reading directly from the head itself.
Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position
as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific
location. I haven't found it yet.
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
this message by persons or entities other than the intended
recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
21/12/2008 02:36 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Re: CHT's
You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
down onto the head...by about 75°. This is because when the
thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75°
difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Gary and Lynn,
>
> As I remember Lynn’s temp actually read higher with his new
> placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
>
>
>
> My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> four hours or so of work in, but I’m not too productive. My son
> has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> ground. Now it doesn’t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> The problem is he doesn’t want to work on the radio, he wants to
fly.
>
>
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> Subject: Re: CHT's
>
>
>
>
> Lynn FYI
>
> yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> the head.
>
> My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
>
> Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> around 260.
>
> Regards and Merry Christmas
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
> 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
> To
>
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-
equipped
> Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> much...damn!
> Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys
have
> got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
>
> ============
> --
> Gifts!)
> on
> about
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ============
> Forum -
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> ============
> WEB FORUMS -
> ============
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> =================================== _-
> =================================== _-
> ===================================
============================================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: CHT's |
|
|
Thanx Lynn,
Succinct and explanatory - that's why I love your posts!
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
“This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
21/12/2008 09:20 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com To
kitfox-list(at)matronics.com cc
Subject
Re: Re: CHT's
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you
only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if
installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they
are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug
and screwing down so that the probe is against the head.
If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul
with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and
perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of
the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory
suggests...removing the (%$#(at)*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto
the plug, then replacing the (%$#(at)*&?+*# ) washer, and installing
the plug.
It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is
a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized
terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with
a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again.
You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT
readout...mine were about 75° higher, and probably a lot more
accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze".
I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark
plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take
the washer off....(%$#(at)*&?+*# ) them!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn
>
> You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of
> guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched
> between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
>
> I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so
> that it was reading directly from the head itself.
>
> Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
>
> I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position
> as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific
> location. I haven't found it yet.
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
> 21/12/2008 02:36 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Re: CHT's
>
>
>
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
>
> You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
> down onto the head...by about 75°. This is because when the
> thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
> where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
> constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
> plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
> of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
> crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
> a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
> allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
> further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
> cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
> plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
> terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
> insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
> called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
> plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
> resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
> based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
> probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
> probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
>
> When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
> gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
> followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
> probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
> the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
> factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75°
> difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
> terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
> "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
> be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
> "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
>
> Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > Gary and Lynn,
> >
> > As I remember Lynn’s temp actually read higher with his new
> > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
> >
> >
> >
> > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> > four hours or so of work in, but I’m not too productive. My son
> > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> > ground. Now it doesn’t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> > The problem is he doesn’t want to work on the radio, he wants to
> fly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jim Crowder
> >
> >
> >
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> > list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate(at)sandvik.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: CHT's
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn FYI
> >
> > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> > the head.
> >
> > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
> >
> > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> > around 260.
> >
> > Regards and Merry Christmas
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > SMC, Exploration
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> > “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> > and happy Christmas".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> >
> > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
> > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> > Please respond to
> > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > To
> >
> > kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > cc
> >
> > Subject
> >
> > Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> >
> > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-
> equipped
> > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> > much...damn!
> > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys
> have
> > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============
> > --
> > Gifts!)
> > on
> > about
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ============
> > Forum -
> > FAQ,
> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > ============
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