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RV Elevator Counterweight question

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chuck515tigger(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

   

  Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not utilizing counterweights ?   Inquiring minds want to know.

   

   

  Do Not Archive



David Karlsberg <claypride(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  



So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is it

okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to buy

a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will just

be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it fits

real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide this

one out. 



Let me know.



Thanks,

David Karlsberg

RV-7

Beverly hills CA



			

---------------------------------

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

On 22 Mar 2006, at 16:51, Chuck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even  

 putting on Counterweights for the elevators.



   Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not  

 utilizing counterweights ?   Inquiring minds want to know.




	


The counterweights are there to increase the minimum airspeed to get  

elevator flutter.  If you don't put in the counterweights, or if the  

elevator is not balanced as per Van's instructions, it is quite  

possible that there will be destructive elevator/HS flutter at a  

speed lower than the recommended VNE.  Flutter, if it occurs, could  

cause the HS and elevator to fail very quickly, causing a fatal  

accident.



Put the counterweights in as per Van's design.  This is not an area  

to experiment.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

gerf(at)gerf.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Also leave them too heavy until you do the final trim prior to 

first flight - you will be adding extra weight to the elevator 

when you install the trim hardware, fiberglass tips and even 

paint.



g



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 On 22 Mar 2006, at 16:51, Chuck wrote:

 

 > 

 >

 > This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even  

 > putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

 >

 >   Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not  

 > utilizing counterweights ?   Inquiring minds want to know.

 >

 

 The counterweights are there to increase the minimum airspeed to get  

 elevator flutter.  If you don't put in the counterweights, or if the  

 elevator is not balanced as per Van's instructions, it is quite  

 possible that there will be destructive elevator/HS flutter at a  

 speed lower than the recommended VNE.  Flutter, if it occurs, could  

 cause the HS and elevator to fail very quickly, causing a fatal  

 accident.

 

 Put the counterweights in as per Van's design.  This is not an area  

 to experiment.

 

 Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

 Ottawa, Canada

 http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

  

  

 

 

 

 


	


-- 

__g__



========================================================== 

Gerry Filby                                  gerf(at)gerf.com

                   Tel: 415 203 9177

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Chuck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

   

  Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not utilizing counterweights ?   Inquiring minds want to know.

   

   

  Do Not Archive



Well Chuck, lemme try to answer, in order:
	


Purpose:  A balanced control surface is less prone to flutter at a given 

airspeed.

Usefulness:  I'd say high.  You don't want to deal with flutter, or it's 

aftermath.  A very good video of a stealth fighter experiencing flaperon 

flutter is out there somewhere on the web.  Watch it.

Results of not using counterweights:  If there is a camera pointing your 

way at that particular moment, you'll have documentation just like the 

Stealth fighter mentioned above.  You, however, do not have an ejection 

seat!

Linn



 	  Quote: 	
		  

David Karlsberg <claypride(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  



So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is it

okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to buy

a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will just

be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it fits

real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide this

one out. 



Let me know.



Thanks,

David Karlsberg

RV-7

Beverly hills CA



			

---------------------------------

chuck515tigger(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Linn,

   

  I've seen the video, it's humorous unless of course you were in the pilot's seat.   Thanks for the analogy.

   

  Chuck



linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

  

Chuck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

 

 Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not utilizing counterweights ? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

 

 Do Not Archive



Well Chuck, lemme try to answer, in order:
	


Purpose: A balanced control surface is less prone to flutter at a given 

airspeed.

Usefulness: I'd say high. You don't want to deal with flutter, or it's 

aftermath. A very good video of a stealth fighter experiencing flaperon 

flutter is out there somewhere on the web. Watch it.

Results of not using counterweights: If there is a camera pointing your 

way at that particular moment, you'll have documentation just like the 

Stealth fighter mentioned above. You, however, do not have an ejection 

seat!

Linn



 	  Quote: 	
		  

David Karlsberg wrote:

 



So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is it

okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to buy

a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will just

be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it fits

real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide this

one out. 



Let me know.



Thanks,

David Karlsberg

RV-7

Beverly hills CA



 

---------------------------------

 

 

 





 




	






		

---------------------------------

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

If this is the one where one of the YF-22s piloted by Tom Morganfeld  

pancaked into the runway after a touch and go (or was it a low  

approach?), then that was not caused by flutter.  It was a problem  

with the fly-by-wire pitch control gains that triggered a pilot  

induced oscillation.

Flutter produces much faster control surface movements, and it often  

leads to control surface failure in a few seconds.  Flutter would be  

much, much worse than what was seen in that video.

Kevin

On 22 Mar 2006, at 21:59, Chuck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Linn,

   I've seen the video, it's humorous unless of course you were in  

 the pilot's seat.   Thanks for the analogy.

   Chuck

 linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

 Chuck wrote:

> 

>

> This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even  

> putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

>

> Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not  

> utilizing counterweights ? Inquiring minds want to know.

> Do Not Archive

>

 Well Chuck, lemme try to answer, in order:

 Purpose: A balanced control surface is less prone to flutter at a  

 given

 airspeed.

 Usefulness: I'd say high. You don't want to deal with flutter, or it's

 aftermath. A very good video of a stealth fighter experiencing  

 flaperon

 flutter is out there somewhere on the web. Watch it.

 Results of not using counterweights: If there is a camera pointing  

 your

 way at that particular moment, you'll have documentation just like the

 Stealth fighter mentioned above. You, however, do not have an ejection

 seat!

 Linn

Rick Galati

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: Re: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Dave,



With this simple modification, you can easily and precisely adjust the elevator's counterbalanced weight to accomodate any current or future balancing requirements such as might be confronted after the application of paint.

I did this on my -8 empennage kit and hopefully is of the same general design as your -7.  What I did was install a 1/4" nutplate over the (existing) forward tooling hole on the outboard rib and by simply stacking a combination of area washers through a bolt on the opposite side of that rib, precise balance is accurately determined and quickly adjusted for.

   

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5788/img0010500io.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7093/img0011506ek.jpg



Rick Galati  RV-6A  "Darla"  

 	  Quote: 	
		  

David Karlsberg <claypride(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  



So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is it

okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to buy

a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will just

be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it fits

real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide this

one out. 



Let me know.



Thanks,

David Karlsberg

RV-7

Beverly hills CA



			

---------------------------------

 

 

 





  

	
[/quote]

Last edited by Rick Galati on Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total

fstringham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Rick



Great idea. Any ideas out there on how to accomplish this as a retro fit on 

a completed elevator.



Frank (at) SGU and SLC

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:47:59 -0800






Dave,



With this simple modification, you can easily and precisely adjust the 

elevator's counterbalanced weight to accomodate any current or future 

balancing requirements such as might be confronted after the application of 

paint.

I did this on my -8 empennage kit and hopefully is of the same general 

design as your -7.  What I did was install a 1/4" nutplate through the 

forward tooling hole on the outboard rib and by simply stacking a 

combination of area washers though a bolt on the opposite side of that rib, 

precise balancing is quickly adjusted.



http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5788/img0010500io.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7093/img0011506ek.jpg



Rick Galati  RV-6A  "Darla"



 >

 > David Karlsberg  wrote:

 >

 >

 > So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

 > pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

 > Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

 > reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is 

it

 > okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to 

buy

 > a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will 

just

 > be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it 

fits

 > real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide 

this

 > one out.

 >

 > Let me know.

 >

 > Thanks,

 > David Karlsberg

 > RV-7

 > Beverly hills CA

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > ---------------------------------

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23664#23664

fstringham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 87

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Frank



Dah ....... look at the ....... elevator before you use up these people's 

good time.............



Rick again thanks for this great idea



Frank (at) sgu and SLC



DO NOT ARCHIVE

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV Elevator Counterweight question

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 04:47:59 -0800






Dave,



With this simple modification, you can easily and precisely adjust the 

elevator's counterbalanced weight to accomodate any current or future 

balancing requirements such as might be confronted after the application of 

paint.

I did this on my -8 empennage kit and hopefully is of the same general 

design as your -7.  What I did was install a 1/4" nutplate through the 

forward tooling hole on the outboard rib and by simply stacking a 

combination of area washers though a bolt on the opposite side of that rib, 

precise balancing is quickly adjusted.



http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5788/img0010500io.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7093/img0011506ek.jpg



Rick Galati  RV-6A  "Darla"



 >

 > David Karlsberg  wrote:

 >

 >

 > So, I am working on the Right elevator. After carefully studying the

 > pictures I trimmed the counterweight as shown on the plans (E-714 Trim

 > Detail). The part remaining is 5/8th (like the picture shows). After

 > reading it again I think I was supposed to do this when balancing it. Is 

it

 > okay I did it now? Or will my weight be too light? If so, do I need to 

buy

 > a new weight or can I do something to fix this? I don't think I will 

just

 > be able to slide a new weight in there cause the skin that goes over it 

fits

 > real tight and when it will be dimpled it might be really hard to slide 

this

 > one out.

 >

 > Let me know.

 >

 > Thanks,

 > David Karlsberg

 > RV-7

 > Beverly hills CA

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > ---------------------------------

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23664#23664

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

No, it was the F-117 stealth fighter that self destructed in front of an 

airshow crowd in the departing high speed pass.  The problem was some 

missing bolts in the outboard hinge attach fitting.  The outboard wing 

section removed itself from the airplane.  Fortunately, noone was hurt 

with the exception of the airplane.  In the video, the airplane just 

'explodes' (no fire 'till it hit the ground) and immediately goes 

catty-wampus (highly technical term, like 'flutter') and a few seconds 

later, the pilot ejects safely.  The only problem is .... we can't do 

that!!!

Linn

Kevin Horton wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



If this is the one where one of the YF-22s piloted by Tom Morganfeld  

pancaked into the runway after a touch and go (or was it a low  

approach?), then that was not caused by flutter.  It was a problem  

with the fly-by-wire pitch control gains that triggered a pilot  

induced oscillation.



Flutter produces much faster control surface movements, and it often  

leads to control surface failure in a few seconds.  Flutter would be  

much, much worse than what was seen in that video.



Kevin



On 22 Mar 2006, at 21:59, Chuck wrote:



  



>

>

>Linn,

>

>  I've seen the video, it's humorous unless of course you were in  

>the pilot's seat.   Thanks for the analogy.

>

>  Chuck

>

>linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

>  

>Chuck wrote:

>

>    

>

>>

>>

>>This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even  

>>putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

>>

>>Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not  

>>utilizing counterweights ? Inquiring minds want to know.

>>

>>

>>Do Not Archive

>>

>>      

>>

>Well Chuck, lemme try to answer, in order:

>Purpose: A balanced control surface is less prone to flutter at a  

>given

>airspeed.

>Usefulness: I'd say high. You don't want to deal with flutter, or it's

>aftermath. A very good video of a stealth fighter experiencing  

>flaperon

>flutter is out there somewhere on the web. Watch it.

>Results of not using counterweights: If there is a camera pointing  

>your

>way at that particular moment, you'll have documentation just like the

>Stealth fighter mentioned above. You, however, do not have an ejection

>seat!

>Linn

>    

>

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

OK.  That type of quick disintegration is the typical result of  

flutter.  Everything will go from OK to the aircraft shedding large  

pieces before the pilot has time to say "S..t".  In some less severe  

cases the magnitude of the oscillation may self-limit, and the  

aircraft won't come apart.  But you have to assume that any flutter  

will lead to a a fatal accident.



Flutter is nasty.



Kevin Horton



On 23 Mar 2006, at 13:08, linn Walters wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>



 No, it was the F-117 stealth fighter that self destructed in front  

 of an

 airshow crowd in the departing high speed pass.  The problem was some

 missing bolts in the outboard hinge attach fitting.  The outboard wing

 section removed itself from the airplane.  Fortunately, noone was hurt

 with the exception of the airplane.  In the video, the airplane just

 'explodes' (no fire 'till it hit the ground) and immediately goes

 catty-wampus (highly technical term, like 'flutter') and a few seconds

 later, the pilot ejects safely.  The only problem is .... we can't do

 that!!!

 Linn

 Kevin Horton wrote:



> 

>

> If this is the one where one of the YF-22s piloted by Tom Morganfeld

> pancaked into the runway after a touch and go (or was it a low

> approach?), then that was not caused by flutter.  It was a problem

> with the fly-by-wire pitch control gains that triggered a pilot

> induced oscillation.

>

> Flutter produces much faster control surface movements, and it often

> leads to control surface failure in a few seconds.  Flutter would be

> much, much worse than what was seen in that video.

>

> Kevin

>

> On 22 Mar 2006, at 21:59, Chuck wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> Linn,

>>

>>  I've seen the video, it's humorous unless of course you were in

>> the pilot's seat.   Thanks for the analogy.

>>

>>  Chuck

>>

>> linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

>>  

>>

>>

>> Chuck wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>>> 

>>>

>>> This brings up a recent conversation on the requirement of even

>>> putting on Counterweights for the elevators.

>>>

>>> Any comments on the purpose(s), usefulness, or results of not

>>> utilizing counterweights ? Inquiring minds want to know.

>>>

>>>

>>> Do Not Archive

>>>

>>>

>>>

>> Well Chuck, lemme try to answer, in order:

>> Purpose: A balanced control surface is less prone to flutter at a

>> given

>> airspeed.

>> Usefulness: I'd say high. You don't want to deal with flutter, or  

>> it's

>> aftermath. A very good video of a stealth fighter experiencing

>> flaperon

>> flutter is out there somewhere on the web. Watch it.

>> Results of not using counterweights: If there is a camera pointing

>> your

>> way at that particular moment, you'll have documentation just  

>> like the

>> Stealth fighter mentioned above. You, however, do not have an  

>> ejection

>> seat!

>> Linn

>>

>>

>

13brv3

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 76

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: RV Elevator Counterweight question

I had worked out a way to be able to easily unbolt the counterweight on the first RV-8 that I built, so I could replace it with a heavier one when I painted the plane.   I happened to mention this to one of the Van's support people when I called about something else, and they almost laughed me off the phone.  They said if it really needed to be that precise, there would be RV's falling out of the sky left and right every day.  Their suggestion at the time was to leave it just a bit heavy to compensate for future paint, then quit worrying about it.  



The next RV I finished was an RV-3.  Guess what, no counterweights at all on an RV-3 elevator, and you couldn't even tell it in flight.  



My advice would be to do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but realize that a small imbalance won't cause a problem under normal operating limits.  Now if you plan to set your Vne 50 kts past the recommendation, then you're on your own anyway.  



Cheers,

Rusty

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

On 23 Mar 2006, at 19:49, 13brv3 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I had worked out a way to be able to easily unbolt the  

 counterweight on the first RV-8 that I built, so I could replace it  

 with a heavier one when I painted the plane.   I happened to  

 mention this to one of the Van's support people when I called about  

 something else, and they almost laughed me off the phone.  They  

 said if it really needed to be that precise, there would be RV's  

 falling out of the sky left and right every day.  Their suggestion  

 at the time was to leave it just a bit heavy to compensate for  

 future paint, then quit worrying about it.



 The next RV I finished was an RV-3.  Guess what, no counterweights  

 at all on an RV-3 elevator, and you couldn't even tell it in flight.



 My advice would be to do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but  

 realize that a small imbalance won't cause a problem under normal  

 operating limits.  Now if you plan to set your Vne 50 kts past the  

 recommendation, then you're on your own anyway.


	


it is good to realize that if the counterweight is too heavy, that it  

will be creating an up-elevator force when you pull g.  This will  

reduce the amount of stick force required to pull a given amount of g  

(or increase the amount of g achieved for a given stick force), and  

would make the aircraft a bit more delicate to fly when pulling g,  

especially at aft CG.  Don't go overboard here.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

There was sombody on a E-mail list years ago, that, "looked down" and when looking up noticed the ASI was at 260 MPH!!!!!! I REALLY would not lose sleep over leaving it just as the factory says. Then there is sombody who flies in airshows with a........Rocket? He regularly hits 280 or was it even faster?

   

   

   

  

13brv3 <13brv3c(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:

  



I had worked out a way to be able to easily unbolt the counterweight on the first RV-8 that I built, so I could replace it with a heavier one when I painted the plane. I happened to mention this to one of the Van's support people when I called about something else, and they almost laughed me off the phone. They said if it really needed to be that precise, there would be RV's falling out of the sky left and right every day. Their suggestion at the time was to leave it just a bit heavy to compensate for future paint, then quit worrying about it. 



The next RV I finished was an RV-3. Guess what, no counterweights at all on an RV-3 elevator, and you couldn't even tell it in flight. 



My advice would be to do whatever makes you feel comfortable, but realize that a small imbalance won't cause a problem under normal operating limits. Now if you plan to set your Vne 50 kts past the recommendation, then you're on your own anyway. 



Cheers,

Rusty





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23823#23823

			

---------------------------------

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: RV Elevator Counterweight question

FWIW, I balanced my RV7 elevator after I painted it.  I have kit #47 so 

things may have changed as of today.  But with my kit I had to remove a lot 

of lead from the counterweight.  I did it by drilling one hole after another 

until I got it perfect.  If I were doing it again and I planned to paint the 

plane, I would paint before making weight adjustments.



Indiana Larry, RV7 "SunSeeker" 90+ hours flying



"Please use the information and opinions I express with responsibility, and 

at your own risk."

---

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