Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Simple rivet test/unzip

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Simple rivet test/unzip
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith601-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

This evening ...



I took two pieces of .025 500mm long, riveted them with A4's at 40mm 

pitch. clamped the end of one in a vice, and grabbed the other piece

with a pair of vice grips. One sharp tug unzipped the entire strip with

very little effort .... Every single rivet head popped right off like butter.



Riveted with the zenith hand riveter and zenith concave head.



Food for thought.



Regards,

Jeff

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

What new gussets?



At 09:48 PM 12/12/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  add the new "triangle and house aileron gussets," use A5 SS rivets 

on the gussets and try that again...

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Thanks Sabrina,



Do you think the rest of us should consider adding these gussets?  Do 

they apply equally to hingeless or hinge type ailerons?



I still can't quite imagine exactly what these gussets do or where 

they go.  Which rivets on the aileron can unzip?  The Hinge area?  On the ribs?



Thanks,



Paul

XL getting close

At 10:18 PM 12/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I designed my aileron gussets in January, they were/are external, 

6061-T6 and .060  w/A5 SS rivets.



They were my response to the unzipping of 601 ailerons in light of 

an examination of in-flight video by myself, my IA and my test 

pilot.  The inboard one looks like a triangle, the next outboard, 

like a house.



Zenith has incorporated similar ones on the 650, I am told they are 

internal and thinner.  I know some builders have ordered them and 

installed them on their 601s. Zenith has their own reasons for the 

design change.

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Jeff, when you tugged on the strip, what angle were your tug with the  clamped piece? Or, was the rivet in shear or tension. Would expect the rivet  heads to pop off if your tug was 90 degrees to the clamped part but if it was  180 degrees  then there is a problem. Jerry of Ga  DO NOT  ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 12/12/2008 10:52:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  n85ae(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>



This    evening ...



I took two pieces of .025 500mm long, riveted them with    A4's at 40mm 

pitch. clamped the end of one in a vice, and grabbed the    other piece

with a pair of vice grips. One sharp tug unzipped the entire    strip with

very little effort .... Every single rivet head popped right off    like butter.



Riveted with the zenith hand riveter and zenith concave    head.



Food for thought.



Regards,

Jeff





Read    this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219159#219159

	




One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mai=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.

  [quote][b]

Z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

It's Saturday, which means Zenith is closed, and I'mn trying to identify a 

part. Can any of you help me on this?



The part in question are the AS5 rivets. Where are they likely to be packed? 

Are they identified specifically as AS5 rivets, or ?



TIA.



-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

cndmovn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Mine in a small ziplock plastic bag maybe 1" x 3"   Label written in marker on bag



On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Jim Belcher <Z601(at)anemicaardvark.com (Z601(at)anemicaardvark.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: Jim Belcher <Z601(at)anemicaardvark.com (Z601(at)anemicaardvark.com)>

  

 It's Saturday, which means Zenith is closed, and I'mn trying to identify a

 part. Can any of you help me on this?

 

 The part in question are the AS5 rivets. Where are they likely to be packed?

 Are they identified specifically as AS5 rivets, or ?

 

 TIA.

 

 --

 ==============================================

 Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

 =================================================

                Jim B. Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                   A&P/IA

            Instrument Rated Pilot

      General Radio Telephone Certificate

 =================================================

 

 

 

 

 [b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

As I am just finishing the wings, could someone at least describe the positioning of the aileron gussets? I'm too dense to visualize! Thanks.



Terry Turnquist

601XL-Plans

St. Peters MO



Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina" 



I would rely upon Zenith and install their gussets per their specifications.  CH knows what he is doing.  If anyone has the new plans, maybe they could describe the 650 versions.   The AMD safety alert seems to talk to this issue:

 http://www.newplane.com/Service_Letters_Bulletines/SAFETY_ALERT_october_29_2008.pdf





Read this topic online         [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Did anyone ever determine how many of the aircraft that experienced wing loss in flight had hinged ailerons? Could it be that the hingeless design is less prone to the problems that are currently the focus of investigators?



Sabrina, do you have any pictures of your installed aileron gussets?



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

On Saturday 13 December 2008 10:45, Cndmovn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mine in a small ziplock plastic bag maybe 1" x 3"   Label written in marker

 on bag

Thanks! Armed with that information, I found them. You likely saved me an hour 
	


or two of fumbling, as I had no idea what size container I should seek.

-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

I checked Zenith website and they added (for the 650) a gusset to Rib 1 & 2. 

The stated reason was to reduce possible buckling when tied down in wind 

gusts.



Randy

---

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Well, my test was VERY unscientific, however ...



You are right, it was essentially in tension. But, the heads tear off so

easily, I was very unhappy. I repeated my simple test with A5's, and the

ball end pulls through, but the heads do not pop off. This to my mind

is ok. The rivets themself don't just break in half.

Regards,

Jeff 



 	  Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Jeff, when you tugged on the strip, what angle were your tug with the  clamped piece? Or, was the rivet in shear or tension. Would expect the rivet  heads to pop off if your tug was 90 degrees to the clamped part but if it was  180 degrees  then there is a problem. Jerry of Ga  DO NOT  ARCHIVE

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?



 	  n85ae wrote: 	
		  Well, my test was VERY unscientific, however ...



You are right, it was essentially in tension. But, the heads tear off so

easily, I was very unhappy. I repeated my simple test with A5's, and the

ball end pulls through, but the heads do not pop off. This to my mind

is ok. The rivets themself don't just break in half.

Regards,

Jeff 



 	  Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Jeff, when you tugged on the strip, what angle were your tug with the  clamped piece? Or, was the rivet in shear or tension. Would expect the rivet  heads to pop off if your tug was 90 degrees to the clamped part but if it was  180 degrees  then there is a problem. Jerry of Ga  DO NOT  ARCHIVE

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

unzip - a classic failure mode once the initial fastener fails and the structure goes into buckling. 



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 11:36 AM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



"Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets

anyway?" Ashontz...

 

A4 for the aft portion of the aileron piano hinge....



A4 are rated at 165/230 pounds,



A5 are         [quote][b]

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

No sure about other 601 plans but the 601HD  6-V-10 drawing dated  06-04 has 

"AN Rivet pitch 40" in the view for the Piano Hinged Aileron Option  and for 

the hingless aileron "A4 rivets pitch 40 last I/B  - O/B rivet use  A5".  It 

does not say what size AN rivets to use on the hinged  system.   Jerry of Ga

 

 

In a message dated 12/16/2008 11:37:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

chicago2paris(at)msn.com writes:






"Without looking at my plans, doesn't the  wing call for A5 rivets anyway?" 

Ashontz...



A4 for the aft portion of  the aileron piano hinge....



A4 are rated at 165/230 pounds,



A5  are rated at 255/375 pounds,



AS5 are rated at 750/1000  pounds.   Correct?



When the force is upward tension at one  end, as opposed to shear across all 

the rivets in a row, does the full row of  rivets give much support to the end 

rivet being tensioned, or once a tension  of 1X to 2X of an A4 is reached and 

maintained, the connection will  unzip?  (Versus a shearing force across a 

row where each rivet adds  strength to the connection and the force would have 

to be many times the shear  limit of any one rivet for the connection to  fail.)

johnd(at)data-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Hi Sabrina,



I just flew N130AW an AMD 601XL at The Flight school of Gwinnet (LZU) 

and it had the same kink in the ailerons. According to the mechanic they 

had showed photo's of the issue to the factory and they said it was 

nothing to worry about. That plane has a bit less than 200 hrs and has 

been in service for less than 2 yrs.



So it seems like it may not be such an uncommon situation as Zenith led 

you to believe.



Can you post a picture or drawing of the gussets you installed ?



John Davis

N601JD

601XL - Jab 3300

Finally ready for first flight



Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My test pilot noticed flexing at the inboard portion of the ailerons where Alex's kink is.  We did not know of Alex's kink at the time and did not think too much of it.  This was on the maiden flight, 11 months and 1 day ago.  However, once this video was reviewed by my IA before the next test flight:



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ZcZPP18uk



 My IA noted the movement as well, and also noted the stress created at the point the rear spar connects the inboard-forward corner of the aileron. 



 Zenith indicated we were the first to raise the issue. Zenith was informed that I had designed gussets and that they were or were about to be installed.  Zenith proceeded to link to my videos from their web page.  No mention was made of the internal 650 gussets to me at AirVenture and the exact issue was not raised again until a former European Zenith distributor raised a similar issue (which I can't talk about) recently in an e-mail, a person privy to the letter recently sent to CH by the European authorities.  I have not seen the letter (some have asked off line.)



 The flexing, which was most pronounced on the down aileron, has not re-occured since installing the four gussets.



 Any opinions about the Hoerner wing tip sending air down or into the channel created by the aileron/spar gap, any opinions on whether the unsealed aileron hinge would amplify this effect, if any?  http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-design.html



 The Germans did not impose a 111 MPH Vne for no reason at all, the left lane of the Autobahn would be quicker...



 Does anyone remember if the Factory Demonstrator has PH ailerons or not?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19647#219647

vvkidd(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

I must have missed the location for the gussets.  Would someone please help me out and give me some info on there design and location.  Drawings?



Victor Kidd

N922VK

Would be fying except for the present WV weather.



--

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

Sabrina,



The red & white factory demonstrator had hingeless ailerons.



I have been communicating with a friend who is going the 650 route and he advised me that the gussets are 0.025 aluminum and slipped between the skin and the rib.  They are installed using A4 rivets.



Stated reason is to prevent damage due to flapping in the wind when the aircraft is parked outside.  Caleb commented it was more of a problem with piano hinge ailerons inasmuch that the hingeless type offer more resistance to deflection.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle)



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown?





Read this topic online         [quote][b]

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

Wow, did you to something to make them mad?  Mine just came via UPS.  You should be able to get them if ordered before the first of the year.

The gussets are about 100mm  - 110mm on a side.  They are on the first and second aileron ribs.  A right triangle on the first and an isosceles with the tip cut off on the second.

There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles.  They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel with the main spar.

Ron



On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote:

[quote]I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle)



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

Subject: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com (zenith601-list(at)matronics.com)

Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  



      

 	  Quote: 	
		  

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

	
	
	
[b]

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Simple rivet test/unzip

I haven't looked at the existing plans (not that far along) but angle  

of the front spare is 83 degrees (where 0 is horizontal and 90 is  

vertical), leaning forward.  This is measured where the top longeron  

is level.



Without really studying them, I think the new plans are easier to  

read.  Looks to me like there are more drawings and they are better  

annotated.  This alone make the upgrade cost worth it to me.



Ron



On Dec 16, 2008, at 9:36 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



 Is the main spar set the same as the 601XL?



 In other words, do they just twist the wing to bring it down two  

 inches in the rear, or have they adjusted the main spar and side  

 skin cut outs too?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 19722#219722

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith601-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum