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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

The second part of this response is OFF TOPIC, so bail out after the  

ski part, if you wish....



Randy, I am SO glad that you posted this picture....on more than one  

level (no pun intended...because the skis LOOK like there are two  

different levels on the bottoms), and the two levels that I'd like to  

address are the skis, of course, and the propellor. These are the  

same skis that I photographed at Osh this year...the Wipaire Air  

Glides. I did not get down to the floor level (there's that word  

again) to inspect the bottoms, but I'm guessing that the bottoms are  

pretty flat, that is, I don't think they are "stepped" like the photo  

makes them appear. I think it's an optical illusion because those  

skis are the hydraulically operated wheel skis, and the outer  

"bottom" is shorter than the inner bottom. Throw in a little curve to  

the bottoms, and you have a perfect illusion of a two tiered ski  

bottom. Now I may be full of crap...it's happened before....but I  

*think* this is what's going on here. I hope somebody has seen these  

skis up close and can report exactly what the bottoms are shaped like.

****************

My second point is the propellor...and Noel will love this....I wish,  

Randy, you hadn't cropped the top off so much, because you can see  

both prop stripes in the picture, yet we don't even see the center of  

the spinner. Both prop blades are lower than below center. How is  

this possible? (and do you care?) It is NOT a three-bladed prop. You  

would know that if you saw the whole advertisement (it's and ad for  

the Aviat Husky). If you look at the whole picture, it looks like the  

prop is bent downwards, like a drooping mustache. This is another  

case of optical illusion, caused by shooting the picture with a slow  

shutter speed (or a high engine speed) and a horizontal focal plane  

shutter. What happens is the narrow slit that lets light into the  

camera passes the right side of the prop which we'll say is at the 4  

o'clock position when the slit passes it, and by the time it crosses  

the film plane (or the digital screen whatever digital cameras do)  

and gets to the opposite side of the propellor, the prop has rotated  

to a different position (this side of the prop would have been at the  

10 o'clock position when the right side was at 4 o'clock of course)  

and the image is burned onto the film/digital screen, and appears as  

though the prop is distorted, bent, whatever. I've found this image  

fascinating ever since I first saw it. To see the whole image go to    

http://www.aircraftowneronline.com/45/index.cfm



This image tells a lie, unlike the old saying, "the camera never  

lies"  : )



Sorry to get off in left field, Guy and Mike, and others, but this  

stuff interests me...and Noel. We'll take it off line if anybody  

wants to yak about it, or has other ideas about this picture.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 23, 2008, at 1:35 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Here is one solution from Wipaire.



 Leonard says you need wide skis for floatation in deep powder.  The  

 problem

 is that you get more friction with wide skis so they are not so  

 good under

 warm, packed conditions.  The Wipaire skis are wide and narrow.



 Look at the picture, I think it will be obvious.



 Thanks to Deke for the encouragement and to Lynn for the 1 lb per  

 sq inch

 concept and some good pictures and to Leonard and others who have  

 added

 enlightenment.  Good discussion!



 Randy  - Series 5/7 912S

 Looking for a matched pair of snow boards....  My son suggested the  

 ski

 rental places at the end of the season.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Skis - Solve the

Lynn,



I will try and get you pics of the ski's tomorrow, I think they have a few of them out at the airport.



You are thinking way too much on the shape of the bottoms and how they actuate.  It is much simpler, unless I am way off in left field ( I spend alot of time there these days) and you lost me on what you were trying to describe.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

My only answer to this is Lynn is spot on and I spent over twenty years as

the biggest liar I know with a camera.  Even today I have to be careful when

taking pictures to illustrate something  It can be too easy to make the

picture show something that isn't there.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

I just had another look at that picture and something comes to mind.  The

step up and the wheels are on the outboard part of the skis.  That would put

quite a twist on the skis on hard pack snow.  Also the wheels would have to

drop down further to  allow the inboard part of the skis to lift off the

runway...  If I was going to try to design a stepped ski, I'm not, I would

have the low part of the step under the wheel so there would be any undue

twisting of the ski on hard snow and I would have the wheel protrude through

the low step so it wouldn't have to penetrate so far.  Doing that would mean

that I would have to put the wide step part of the ski outboard of the

wheels to stop the skis from tripping in a turn.  Outboard would also give

you something to step on in all that deep powder.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

There is a very famous picture of an old race car that was taken as  

the car went by. The cameraman panned with the car and he was using a  

vertical-shutter camera. As he panned with the race car...using a  

slightly faster or slower pan speed as compared to the car....a  

telephone pole in the background slants one way while the rear tire  

on the car goes oval shaped, and is slanted the other way...very  

unusual.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 23, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My only answer to this is Lynn is spot on and I spent over twenty  

 years as

 the biggest liar I know with a camera.  Even today I have to be  

 careful when

 taking pictures to illustrate something  It can be too easy to make  

 the

 picture show something that isn't there.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

Noel-

I don't think it IS a step at all...see my other post for how to make  

a paper shape and I think you'll agree that the "step" MIGHT be an  

optical illusion. Let me know what you think after making the "paper  

ski."



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 23, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just had another look at that picture and something comes to  

 mind.  The

 step up and the wheels are on the outboard part of the skis.  That  

 would put

 quite a twist on the skis on hard pack snow.  Also the wheels would  

 have to

 drop down further to  allow the inboard part of the skis to lift  

 off the

 runway...  If I was going to try to design a stepped ski, I'm not,  

 I would

 have the low part of the step under the wheel so there would be any  

 undue

 twisting of the ski on hard snow and I would have the wheel  

 protrude through

 the low step so it wouldn't have to penetrate so far.  Doing that  

 would mean

 that I would have to put the wide step part of the ski outboard of the

 wheels to stop the skis from tripping in a turn.  Outboard would  

 also give

 you something to step on in all that deep powder.



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

Lynn all this talk of photography is like getting a kick in the duff.  So aI went out ant ook a few "snaps" of my skis The very first one has a perspective that makes the axel look tilted, its not.  Thge reverse inserts may give you a few ideas.  

   

Picture 1.  These skis are no doubt foam cored as they are quite stiff and weigh a lot less than the wheel and tire they replace.  

   

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 2. This is the picture I mentioned with the perspective shift on the axel.  

   

[img]cid:image004.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 3. This angle shows the axel is straight and it also shows the two thin Teflon plastic runners on the bottom of the ski.  Notice no whear bars as the skis are not to be used on bare pavement.  

   

   

[img]cid:image006.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

   

Picture 4.Ski right side up reversing insert upside down.  

   

[img]cid:image008.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 5.Reversing insert in place on ski.  Insert is held in p[lace by a cmall bungee that goes through the I screw and around the axel. ( retainer is not in palce.)  

   

[img]cid:image010.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 6.

 Rear view of the ski with the reversing insert in place  

   

[img]cid:image012.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 7. This angle shows why the reversing inserts should be removed before forward taxiing let alone flight.  

   

[img]cid:image023.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Picture 8.  Insert in place taken bottom up from the rear.  

   

[img]cid:image024.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

All these pictures were almost 2M in size I crop0ped and reduced them for E-mail  

   

What I tried to hide is except for a small drift there really isn’t that much snow around here... Certainly not enough to think about landing in bogs on skis.  No sign of ice this month.. I have an ocean of water outside my door.  

   

Re the length of the skis Longer will get you on top of the snow faster, as there is less frontal area to plough per sq inch of loading area...  but they will also help keep you straight...  this is great until you want to turn.  Wider skis will give more lift on the snow but with the wide frontal area will be harder to get to lift you to the top of the snow.  Wider skis won’t hold your plane as straight as longer skis..  It’s all a matter of compromise.  

   

When I was in high school I used to ski on a set of head 215 downhill racing skis.  Speed and stability were  no problem...

 Turning was!  Today the average ski is a lot shorter ability to do fast turns is increased but some of the stability especially in powder snow is gone.  

   

Sorry if the whole e-mail is a bit on the large size for dialup  I think it’s less than ½ MB.  

   

Three guesses how I like to fly ( the first two don’t count)  

   

Merry Christmas  

   

[img]cid:image025.jpg(at)01C965DB.8894B4E0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

912 almost installed  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

I agree I think it is an optical illusion probably caused by the plane being

close to clean bright snow on the ground and there being more light on  the

outside of the skis.  Look real close and you can just make out the line of

the "stepped" area of each ski.  Look at that line and the step disappears.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

Are you sure the axle mount is not tilted, Noel? I have an author's  

write-up for mounting Federal skis A-1500A through A-2000A, and in it  

is the mention:



  "How many ski fliers using Federal skis know that there is a right  

and a left ski? I was always under the impression that the skis were  

interchangeable from side to side. This is definitely not true!"     

It goes on to say (and this is written on a drawing from Federal  

Instructions):



"Inspect your ski pedestals carefully to determine the left and right  

ski. The high side of the pedestal cross tube is always placed on the  

inside."



In looking at the drawings of the Federal skis, Noel, there is  

definitely a high and a low side, just like your skis appear to have.  

I'm not saying that yours do, but it might be worth looking at again.  

After all, there might be some compensation for camber built into  

your skis....Federal seems to have done that in the ski that these  

instructions pertain to. Another caption reads:



"To compensate for the camber of the landing gear, Federal Skis are  

made Left and Right. The high side of the pedestal cross tube must be  

placed on the inside of the gear."



If your axle aren't tilted, it appears that the ski was built so that  

a tilted axle insert could be done.



Noel: I really like the reversing inserts! That's a neat idea.  

Definitely want those puppies off, when you go forward!



The whole email came into me at 170KB, Noel, and thanks for shooting  

them.



****************

There was just a knock on my door and it was the UPS guy with all my  

new ski material...chrome-moly, cables, shock cord, thimbles,  

shackles, etc. Even got a book on operating a plane on floats and  

skis. Man, I ordered that stuff (Aircraft Spruce) on Monday, and it's  

here already...man, Santa Claus is a helluva guy! YEEEE-HAWWWW!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 24, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn all this talk of photography is like getting a kick in the  

 duff.  So aI went out ant ook a few "snaps" of my skis The very  

 first one has a perspective that makes the axel look tilted, its  

 not.  Thge reverse inserts may give you a few ideas.



 Picture 1.  These skis are no doubt foam cored as they are quite  

 stiff and weigh a lot less than the wheel and tire they replace.



 Picture 2. This is the picture I mentioned with the perspective  

 shift on the axel.



 Picture 3. This angle shows the axel is straight and it also shows  

 the two thin Teflon plastic runners on the bottom of the ski.   

 Notice no whear bars as the skis are not to be used on bare pavement.



 Picture 4.Ski right side up reversing insert upside down.



 Picture 5.Reversing insert in place on ski.  Insert is held in p 

 [lace by a cmall bungee that goes through the I screw and around  

 the axel. ( retainer is not in palce.



 Picture 6.

 Rear view of the ski with the reversing insert in place



 Picture 7. This angle shows why the reversing inserts should be  

 removed before forward taxiing let alone flight.



 Picture 8.  Insert in place taken bottom up from the rear.



 All these pictures were almost 2M in size I crop0ped and reduced  

 them for E-mail



 What I tried to hide is except for a small drift there really isn’t  

 that much snow around here... Certainly not enough to think about  

 landing in bogs on skis.  No sign of ice this month.. I have an  

 ocean of water outside my door.



 Re the length of the skis Longer will get you on top of the snow  

 faster, as there is less frontal area to plough per sq inch of  

 loading area...  but they will also help keep you straight...  this  

 is great until you want to turn.  Wider skis will give more lift on  

 the snow but with the wide frontal area will be harder to get to  

 lift you to the top of the snow.  Wider skis won’t hold your plane  

 as straight as longer skis..  It’s all a matter of compromise.



 When I was in high school I used to ski on a set of head 215  

 downhill racing skis.  Speed and stability were  no problem...

 Turning was!  Today the average ski is a lot shorter ability to do  

 fast turns is increased but some of the stability especially in  

 powder snow is gone.



 Sorry if the whole e-mail is a bit on the large size for dialup  I  

 think it’s less than ½ MB.



 Three guesses how I like to fly ( the first two don’t count)



 Merry Christmas



 Noel Loveys

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

infow(at)mts.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

You are right Lynn...

  

 There is a left and a right ski.  We used to do that when we were building skis for our RC models.  The pedestal was always higher on the inside and canted the ski up about 10 degrees on the outside edge.  In the enclosed photos from my 15 lb Beaver the skis are 3" wide and 14" long. I used 1/8" plywood and sanded to nothing on the outside edge of the pedestal.  Also used a 1/8" x 1/8" spruce spine on the bottom for directional control.  My tail ski was 3" long and 1-1/2" wide with the 1/8 x 1/8 spine also...

  

 View showing the left and right pedestal as viewed from the front...

 

  

  

 

  

  

 Rear horizontal level view of the left ski with the outside of the pedestal 1/8 plywood sanded down to zero...

 

  

 Hope these photos are clear enough...

  

 R.D.(Ron) Leclerc

 CH701 Plans(Scrap)  Builder #7-6699

 Porsche Power  Geared  Redrive

 Winnipeg,  MB Canada

 infow(at)mts.net

 12/25/2008 1:03:34 PM

 ***************************************

 This E-Mail scanned with AVG Anti-Virus Ver: 7.5!

 ***************************************

  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson

 

 

  Are you sure the axle mount is not tilted, Noel? I have an

  author's write-up for mounting Federal skis A-1500A through A-

  2000A, and in it is the mention:

 

  "How many ski fliers using Federal skis know that there is a

  right and a left ski? I was always under the impression that the

  skis were interchangeable from side to side. This is definitely

  not true!" It goes on to say (and this is written on a drawing

  from Federal Instructions):

 

  "Inspect your ski pedestals carefully to determine the left and

  right ski. The high side of the pedestal cross tube is always

  placed on the inside."

 

  In looking at the drawings of the Federal skis, Noel, there is

  definitely a high and a low side, just like your skis appear to

  have. I'm not saying that yours do, but it might be worth looking

  at again. After all, there might be some compensation for camber

  built into your skis....Federal seems to have done that in the

  ski that these instructions pertain to. Another caption reads:

 

  "To compensate for the camber of the landing gear, Federal Skis

  are made Left and Right. The high side of the pedestal cross tube

  must be placed on the inside of the gear."

 

  If your axle aren't tilted, it appears that the ski was built so

  that a tilted axle insert could be done.

 

  Noel: I really like the reversing inserts! That's a neat idea.

  Definitely want those puppies off, when you go forward!

 

  The whole email came into me at 170KB, Noel, and thanks for

  shooting them.

 

  ****************

  There was just a knock on my door and it was the UPS guy with all

  my new ski material...chrome-moly, cables, shock cord, thimbles,

  shackles, etc. Even got a book on operating a plane on floats and

  skis. Man, I ordered that stuff (Aircraft Spruce) on Monday, and

  it's here already...man, Santa Claus is a helluva guy! YEEEE-

  HAWWWW!

 

  Lynn Matteson

  Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

  Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

  Sensenich 62x46

  flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire

  ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis

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Jimz

Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

If your Federal skis don't have the hole in the pedestal at an angle then 

they are made for an Ercoupe. I have seen several airplanes with 2 left or 2 

right skis on them. Also left and rights put on backwards. On Federals the 

tag is on the low or outside side of the ski pedestal. I have a set of the 

Federal 1400's on my Champ. They are shorter and wider than the old 1500's. 

I have had both and like the short wide ones better.

Series 5, 0-200 under construction.

Lake Elmo MN.



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

Thanks, for the photos, Ron, absolutely clear....brings back the days  

of flying RC across the road on the lake when it froze over. I can  

still see my Astro Hog (on skis)  banking left and auguring in, as it  

either got out of range, or batteries failed...RIP, ol'  Hog....man,  

that was a fun airplane. 

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Dec 25, 2008, at 2:24 PM, R.D.(Ron) Leclerc wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You are right Lynn...



 There is a left and a right ski.  We used to do that when we were  

 building skis for our RC models.  The pedestal was always higher on  

 the inside and canted the ski up about 10 degrees on the outside  

 edge.  In the enclosed photos from my 15 lb Beaver the skis are 3"  

 wide and 14" long. I used 1/8" plywood and sanded to nothing on the  

 outside edge of the pedestal.  Also used a 1/8" x 1/8" spruce spine  

 on the bottom for directional control.  My tail ski was 3" long and  

 1-1/2" wide with the 1/8 x 1/8 spine also...



 Hope these photos are clear enough...



 R.D.(Ron) Leclerc

 CH701 Plans(Scrap)  Builder #7-6699

 Porsche Power  Geared  Redrive

 Winnipeg,  MB Canada

 infow(at)mts.net

 12/25/2008 1:03:34 PM

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Skis - Solve the "Wide or Narrow" problem...partly off topi

Interesting...thanks for the input, "Zim". This is good stuff to  

know...I wonder why the Federal people didn't mark the skis left and  

right. I had a Fed 1500 at home here and I cleaned off the data plate  

(which was at the rear of the ski) and could not determine any L or R  

designation. Maybe I didn't know what I was looking for....OR they  

were for a 'coupe, like you said. ....no, these were slanted, so that  

can't be.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition  

system;

also building a new pair of snow skis





On Dec 25, 2008, at 3:01 PM, Zimmermans wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If your Federal skis don't have the hole in the pedestal at an  

 angle then they are made for an Ercoupe. I have seen several  

 airplanes with 2 left or 2 right skis on them. Also left and rights  

 put on backwards. On Federals the tag is on the low or outside side  

 of the ski pedestal. I have a set of the Federal 1400's on my  

 Champ. They are shorter and wider than the old 1500's. I have had  

 both and like the short wide ones better.

 Series 5, 0-200 under construction.

 Lake Elmo MN.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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