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EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

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earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo.  When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the thermostat goes.  I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where it would normally be placed.  Does the engine actually have a place for it?

Any information would be helpful.  Thanks

Ted

jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

When I had a NSI EA81 engine, we placed the thermostat in the water line

running to the radiator.



Jim Crowder



[quote] --

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

I believe that the thermostat housing went with the original OEM manifold. 

The one used on the NSI is a custom unit.

Some have fabricated their own housings.  Others have placed them on inside 

one of one of the coolant lines.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

There have been several ways to do it including a BMW thermostat

housing, and stuffing it in one of the coolant hoses. What I found that

worked well for me was a simple two piece aluminum inline housing. I

place a "fale safe" thermostat between the half's. A couple of small

holes drilled in the thermostat to allow sufficient flow so the

thermostat sees the temp change.  There may be an old pic on sport

flight. If not let me know and I will e-mail it to you. Worked like a

champ. I later went to a waterless coolant with even better results. I

know some will take issue with the idea, but I used it and it works.

Made by Evans. 



Rick



--

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information on the "waterless" that you are talking about.  You can email me off line if you wish.  earnestj(at)frontiernet.net. 

Ted

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

On Sat, January 10, 2009 7:42 am, earnestj0 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks Rick, I would appreciate a photo and also information on the "waterless" that

 you are talking about.


	


"In the 1980s inventor Jack Evans discovered the advantages of using a waterless

coolant. His final formulation is a mixture of ethylene glycol and propylene glycol.

This coolant has a high boiling point of 188 °C (370 °F) and is not corrosive, solving

many of water's problems including freezing."



<http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Antifreeze>



I got curious and did a little research on this. Rick talked about using NPG+ made by

Evans Cooling. Here is their website.



<http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm>



I found nothing on their website that was other than sales/marketing/folklore

presentation. There is no "white paper" or generally accepted format for research to

corroborate their claims.



Their product is called "NPG+" which is a corrosion inhibited propylene glycol

ethylene glycol blend.



It has a much higher temperature boiling point than an ideal mix of inhibited ethylene

glycol and water. However it is substantially more viscous (especially at low

temperatures), has a lower heat capacity and offers less freeze protection.



They make a claim that major engine manufacturers and specifically Rotax require their

fluid.



I looked through all the Rotax service bulletins and found this:



<http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02398.pdf>



Well, from reading that, it sounds like it is a little less than mandatory. A higher

pressure cap seems to be the emphasis and no where does it actually say that NPG or

NPG+ is required.



Evans summarizes the properties in a table at the bottom of this page:



<http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm>



I have done quite a bit of research on failures of heat transfer systems filled with

food grade glycol (propylene) and inhibited ethylene glycol. In fact I spent an entire

year doing so. In large mixed metal systems the expected life of propylene glycol as a

coolant is significantly less than ethylene glycol systems. The biggest contributor to

failure is entrained air and high operating temperatures. The air oxidizes the glycol

forming fairly long molecular chain organic acids. The inhibitors have capacity to

buffer the pH change to a limit. What you'll notice with propylene glycol (NPG and

NPG+) filled systems is steady and gradual discoloration of the coolant. It begins to

start turning brown soon after installing and at some point it can start to form a

corrosive sludge that will plug heat exchangers. Of course in a small engine, you

don't have to maintain inhibitors or worry about filtering, you just drain, flush and

refill.



Because of the significantly lower heat capacity of pure inhibited propylene glycol,

more flow is required. For some applications this means using a higher flow capacity

water pump and more tubes in the radiator. The Evans people, in fact, sell cooling

system mods for engines they use in racing conditions because of this.



So, if you are convinced this is something you want to use, you will need to change

out the fluid more often and use twice as much than if you use 50-50 mix of water and

inhibited ethylene glycol and you will not have the freeze protection and the NPG or

NPG+ should not be operated much below 40°F which is problematic in aircraft where the

ambient air temperature is often colder than this.



I think using a higher pressure cap and the heavy duty (extended life) rated for mixed

metals type of inhibited ethylene glycol which is color coded orange in the US and is

the recommended fluid by Ford, GM, Chrysler, Caterpillar and Cummins is my preference

and I will use in my Rotax 914.



The extended life coolants use an entirely different corrosion inhibiting chemistry

that uses carboxylate organic acids instead of the silicates, phosphates or borates.



Here's a brief overview of engine coolants:



<http://www.aa1car.com/library/coolant.htm>



I am neither endorsing nor discouraging the use of Evans' waterless coolant.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Paul,



This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant.  I think we sometimes 

forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and certified that use a 

version of the Rotax 912.  I know from group flying experience that the Rans 

S-7 has a cooling problem and often has to step climb to avoid going into 

temps I have never seen on my Model IV.  It is my belief that the Evans 

coolant might be appropriate for that application as the temps are much 

higher than the boiling point of water.  For me, I was never tempted to use 

it.  It is sort of like putting a cast on a perfectly good leg because my 

friend has one on his leg.



Lowell Fitt

Cameron Park, CA

Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover checklist,  Rudder 

trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing Gear - done.



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Not to start an engine war, but it is threads like this one that make  

me smile about my choice of engine, even with all the problems that I  

have had with mine.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 Paul,



 This has sort of been my take on the Evans Coolant.  I think we  

 sometimes forget that there are many airplanes experimantal and  

 certified that use a version of the Rotax 912.  I know from group  

 flying experience that the Rans S-7 has a cooling problem and often  

 has to step climb to avoid going into temps I have never seen on my  

 Model IV.  It is my belief that the Evans coolant might be  

 appropriate for that application as the temps are much higher than  

 the boiling point of water.  For me, I was never tempted to use  

 it.  It is sort of like putting a cast on a perfectly good leg  

 because my friend has one on his leg.



 Lowell Fitt

 Cameron Park, CA

 Model IV-1200 R-912 UL

 Currently focusing on the Left Wing - doing the precover  

 checklist,  Rudder trim system - my rib warp design, and Landing  

 Gear - done.



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Hey Lynn,  Your comment blows my mind.  Are you suggestion that your 

catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your megabucks repair of 

that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a weak design there as well 

somehow relates to deciding whether or not to use evans coolant.



Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong,  and please correct me if I 

misunderstood your meaning.



Lowell

Do not archive

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

What I was thinking, and didn't relate it all, was that every time I  

hear the Rotax guys, and I guess any of the water-cooled guys talking  

about that expensive waterless stuff, and having to relocate  

radiators, and where to place the thermostat, and dealing with all  

the hoses, etc., I just am thankful that air-cooled engines  at least  

don't have to worry about leakage and all the other attendant  

problems that seem to come up so often.



Yes, air-cooled engines need their own touches to make them perfect,  

but the proper coolant and possible loss thereof isn't one of them.

Yes, I've had problems with *my* engine, but not all the Jabs have  

had the gear problem. Just like not all the water-cooled guys have  

problems, not all the air-cooled engines break a timing gear.

Yes, the ignition system is a weak link, but I chose to replace mine  

rather than glue the rotors on, because I wanted something different,  

and better, and more modern. I could have changed caps and rotors  

every month for 10 years and not spend what I did for my new  

ignition, but I'm an experimenter and chose to spend the  

money...overkill? Yes. Necessary? No. Am I satisfied? Yes.



If you didn't know I had those engine problems...or if I hadn't  

mentioned it...and simply said "glad I chose an air-cooled engine",  

would that have been better?I think probably it would have, or better  

yet kept my comment and thoughts on this subject to myself.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 11, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 Hey Lynn,  Your comment blows my mind.  Are you suggestion that  

 your catastrophic failure of that hat shaped gear and your  

 megabucks repair of that and your ignition mods to help mitigate a  

 weak design there as well somehow relates to deciding whether or  

 not to use evans coolant.



 Sorry if this comes along as a bit strong,  and please correct me  

 if I misunderstood your meaning.



 Lowell

 Do not archive

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think probably it would have, or better yet kept my comment and thoughts

on this subject to myself.
	




Hell no Lynn, from what I've read here you're a smart and tough old coot,

and your tinkering, even when it doesn't work, saves us from making the same

mistakes! 



And I quote here from someone else on the list I don't know well, but

respect his opinion, Deke's sig says "The aim of an argument or discussion

should not be victory, but progress."



Amen to that

bob



do not archive



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Lynn,



I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of Googling around 

(Jabiru Cooling)  and found a very interesting quote among many others folks 

will have to find for themselves.



The quote reads:   "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow.  One thing he used 

to say is, "If we all wanted the same things, we'd all be chasing Grandma.""



Lowell

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Who you callin' "old" and when did my tinkering NOT work? ...I'm  

kidding, Bob.....  : )   And speaking of saving "us from making the  

same mistakes", if I've saved just one person from buying a Jabiru,  

I'll consider that progress.....(and another engine saved for my own  

purchase.)  : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:06 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



> I think probably it would have, or better yet kept my comment and  

> thoughts

 on this subject to myself.



 Hell no Lynn, from what I've read here you're a smart and tough old  

 coot,

 and your tinkering, even when it doesn't work, saves us from making  

 the same

 mistakes! 



 And I quote here from someone else on the list I don't know well, but

 respect his opinion, Deke's sig says "The aim of an argument or  

 discussion

 should not be victory, but progress."



 Amen to that

 bob



 do not archive



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

I've done some more thinking too, Lowell, and it would have better if  

I had just posted the following:   air-cooling  versus liquid- 

cooling...which is less troublesome? Both camps have their plusses  

and minuses, but after reading Paul's post regarding Evans Coolant,  

and then thinking about all the air burping and pressure cap talk,  

water pump flow, location of radiator in or out of the airstream,  

people having to make up special nipples for heater hose connections,  

and I can't begin to remember all the other posts I've read regarding  

liquid cooling, it just *seems* like there is less talk over on the  

Jabiru site regarding cooling issues. Because I don't search out all  

the other engine groups, I'm basing my comments on the Matronics  

Kitfox list, and the Yahoo Jab group and the Matronics Jabiru-Engine  

(almost non-existent) list. Granted, Jabiru had early cooling  

problems and solved them by increasing the number of head fins and  

fin area. Most of the rest of their cooling can be dealt with by the  

strategic placement of baffles, or by establishing the proper cowl  

inlet and outlet area and shape. I wasn't into aircraft when Rotax  

began using their engines in airplanes, so I don't know their  

history, but it *seems* like Jabiru has built an engine, perhaps  

stopping a bit short of engineering it all the way, then marketed it  

before it was ready to be marketed, relying on the customer to do  

their test program for them. I say this based on my findings with my  

engine....others may not have the hours that I've put on mine, so  

haven't got to the point in their engine's life that mine has gotten  

to. But as I've said before, I may have the fruit of the lemon tree,  

but it's my lemon and I'm trying to sweeten it as best I can......OH  

MAN!, is that poetic or what??????



But I  

digress................................again...................  : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 11, 2009, at 3:40 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



 Lynn,



 I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of Googling  

 around (Jabiru Cooling)  and found a very interesting quote among  

 many others folks will have to find for themselves.



 The quote reads:   "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow.  One  

 thing he used to say is, "If we all wanted the same things, we'd  

 all be chasing Grandma.""



 Lowell

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Gee C I guess that its my turn now.  Not too many air cooled cars left on road C wonder why.  If I had known about all of these problems with liquid cooled engines C wouldn't have sold my bug.  Takes a long time to read these comments about engines.  If you like it or not C Rotax is engine of choice for darn good reasons.  I am sure the 912ULS will out perform the Jab 3300 with not as much fuel burn.  

  

 Clint with a lot of hours in those dreaded liquid cooled engines.



[quote] From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Re: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

 Date: Sun C 11 Jan 2009 17:11:29 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 I've done some more thinking too C Lowell C and it would have better if 

 I had just posted the following: air-cooling versus liquid- 

 cooling...which is less troublesome? Both camps have their plusses 

 and minuses C but after reading Paul's post regarding Evans Coolant C 

 and then thinking about all the air burping and pressure cap talk C 

 water pump flow C location of radiator in or out of the airstream C 

 people having to make up special nipples for heater hose connections C 

 and I can't begin to remember all the other posts I've read regarding 

 liquid cooling C it just *seems* like there is less talk over on the 

 Jabiru site regarding cooling issues. Because I don't search out all 

 the other engine groups C I'm basing my comments on the Matronics 

 Kitfox list C and the Yahoo Jab group and the Matronics Jabiru-Engine 

 (almost non-existent) list. Granted C Jabiru had early cooling 

 problems and solved them by increasing the number of head fins and 

 fin area. Most of the rest of their cooling can be dealt with by the 

 strategic placement of baffles C or by establishing the proper cowl 

 inlet and outlet area and shape. I wasn't into aircraft when Rotax 

 began using their engines in airplanes C so I don't know their 

 history C but it *seems* like Jabiru has built an engine C perhaps 

 stopping a bit short of engineering it all the way C then marketed it 

 before it was ready to be marketed C relying on the customer to do 

 their test program for them. I say this based on my findings with my 

 engine....others may not have the hours that I've put on mine C so 

 haven't got to the point in their engine's life that mine has gotten 

 to. But as I've said before C I may have the fruit of the lemon tree C 

 but it's my lemon and I'm trying to sweeten it as best I can......OH 

 MAN! C is that poetic or what??????

 

 But I 

 digress...............................again................... : )

 

 

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 600.2 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 flying again after engine rebuild C and new Electroair direct-fire 

 ignition system;

 also building a new pair of snow skis

 do not archive

 

 

 

 On Jan 11 C 2009 C at 3:40 PM C Lowell Fitt wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" 

 > <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >

 > Lynn C

 >

 > I understand and after sending off the post I did a bit of Googling 

 > around (Jabiru Cooling) and found a very interesting quote among 

 > many others folks will have to find for themselves.

 >

 > The quote reads: "My grandpa was a pretty smart fellow. One 

 > thing he used to say is C "If we all wanted the same things C we'd 

 > all be chasing Grandma.""

 >

 > Lowell

 > ---

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Except for boats, liquid cooled engines are also air  cooled at the end, best of two worlds?

  

 air or liquid cooled, if it is not don right it isn't! and  have to be re-don.

  

 Jan

 [quote]   ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Maybe because they were there first? How many of the Cessnas out  

there are Rotax-powered?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

flying again after engine rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire  

ignition system;

also building a new pair of snow skis

do not archive



On Jan 11, 2009, at 9:38 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Gee, I guess that its my turn now.  Not too many air cooled cars  

 left on road, wonder why.  If I had known about all of these  

 problems with liquid cooled engines, wouldn't have sold my bug.   

 Takes a long time to read these comments about engines.  If you  

 like it or not, Rotax is engine of choice for darn good reasons.  I  

 am sure the 912ULS will out perform the Jab 3300 with not as much  

 fuel burn.



 Clint with a lot of hours in those dreaded liquid cooled engines.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

And here I thought you'd object to being called a "coot" rather than "old".

Shows to go ya. 



Give yourself a big pat on the back in the name of progress - I won't be

buying a Jabiru for my next upgrade! So there's that one person at least...

Maybe after the Matteson-mods are incorporated into production however I

might consider it. 



Do not archive



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

earnestj0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Location: McCall, Idaho

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat

Thanks everyone for their opinions, it has been very helpful when I was putting this Vixen back together.  There are still a few more tinkers that need to be completed, and the thermostat is one of the last things as well as replacing the water pump so it will function at higher rpms.  There was no thermostat on the engine that was blown (valve), so didn't even know if it requires one in the first place.  

I don't think I am interested in the waterless, just had never heard of it and asked.  Where I fly, the temps get pretty low, so don't think it would be appropriate in this climate.  But info was provided very nicely as other issues have been explained.  

As far as engine choices, the Subaru turbo was the one in this little plane so will stick with it for now.  It sure has plenty of get up and go!  I have about 30 hours on the new engine, and the only issue is temp getting a little on the high side when climbing (up to 220F).  But with prop adjustments have been able to keep it under control.   

Ted

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