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Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

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txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

I'm working on installing a set of bubble doors purchased from Skyshop and I have a few questions.  I tried asking Skyshop, but they said they don't support ZAC anymore.



The doors were supplied with 70 A5 rivets, 30 A4 rivets, and 35 rivets I've never seen before (in picture on left).  They appear to be 1/8", but I'm wondering if they're specifically made for riveting lexan.  What the heck are these, and where do I use them?



Second issue:  is there any good technique for riveting the lexan to the door?  I have a plexiglass bit and step unibit for drilling, but it seems bending the lexan in place on the top and bottom flange will almost certainly crack it.



Third issue:  someone on this forum mentioned problems with mounting the gas strut on the rear door tube, saying the door flexes when pulled down.  Has anyone else had this issue?  Anyone try mounting the gas strut on the forward tube and cabin frame?



Issue #4:  related to a recent post of a door coming off in flight, I'm thinking of another solution.  I'm considering purchasing a couple Quick Release pins from Aircraft Spruce ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/qkreleasepin.php ), drilling a 1/4" hole in the door latch and strike plate, and simply inserting the pin prior to flight.  I think the pin should be able to come out quickly in the event of an emergency.  Any thoughts on problems with this solution?



Thanks for any help.



Dan Ginty

N787DG

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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

I think they look sort of like Cherry rivets.  Supposedly a substitute

for Solid Rivets but CH doesn't favor them too much.



Randall J Hebert



I'm working on installing a set of bubble doors purchased from Skyshop

and I have a few questions.  I tried asking Skyshop, but they said they

don't support ZAC anymore.

Thanks for any help.



Dan Ginty

N787DG

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

Dan, my only concern with pinning the door latch in flight is that if you were in an accident that disabled you (out cold) and someone was trying to rescue you.  Having the door pinned closed could slow things down quite a bit.  I think the horizontal bar idea JG posted would be a better solution as a supplimentary door closure.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Issue #4:  related to a recent post of a door coming off in

 flight, I'm thinking of another solution.  I'm

 considering purchasing a couple Quick Release pins from

 Aircraft Spruce (

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/qkreleasepin.php

 ), drilling a 1/4" hole in the door latch and strike

 plate, and simply inserting the pin prior to flight.  I

 think the pin should be able to come out quickly in the

 event of an emergency.  Any thoughts on problems with this

 solution?

 

 Thanks for any help.

 

 Dan Ginty

 N787DG

Curt.Thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

The rivet on the left looks like a "closed end blind rivet" like the ones I

used to make my glued-up fuel tanks.  They are capped at the end so that

stuff (fuel or air) does not bleed through the stem.  I don't think they

would work any different than the Avex rivets for this purpose.  I don't see

where these would work any better for lexan.  They probably included them

because that is what they had on hand.



Curt

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

They seem to have a lot of 701 stuff on their website yet, for a company not supporting 701s.



do not archive



Kevin

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

Let me get this straight.. You bought some doors from Skyshop and now Danny says he doesn't support ZAC anymore ? He sold the doors,,  He took your money. He should support them . Period ! 

do not archive



Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "txpilot" <djg7(at)comcast.net> wrote:

--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "txpilot" <djg7(at)comcast.net>



I'm working on installing a set of bubble doors purchased from Skyshop and I have a few questions.  I tried asking Skyshop, but they said they don't support ZAC anymore.



The doors were supplied with 70 A5 rivets, 30 A4 rivets, and 35 rivets I've never seen before (in picture on left).  They appear to be 1/8", but I'm wondering if they're specifically made for riveting lexan.  What the heck are these, and where do I use them?



Second issue:  is there any good technique for riveting the lexan to the door?  I have a plexiglass bit and step unibit for drilling, but it seems bending the lexan in place on the top and bottom flange will almost certainly crack it.



Third issue:  someone on this forum mentioned problems with mounting the gas strut on the rear door tube, saying the door flexes when pulled down.  Has anyone else had this issue?  Anyone try mounting the gas strut on the forward tube and cabin frame?



Issue #4:  related to a recent post of a door coming off in flight, I'm thinking of another solution.  I'm considering purchasing a couple Quick Release pins from Aircraft Spruce ( http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/qkreleasepin.php ), drilling a 1/4" hole in the door latch and strike plate, and simply inserting the pin prior to flight.  I think the pin should be able to come out quickly in the event of an emergency.  Any thoughts on problems with this solution?



Thanks for any help.



Dan Ginty

N787DG





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txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

 	  Quote: 	
		  They seem to have a lot of 701 stuff on their website yet, for a company not supporting 701s. 



do not archive 



Kevin 	




I asked them about that.  They said they really don't have control of their website anymore.  They want to remove that information since they don't have anything for Zenith Aircraft in stock anymore.  No, I don't get it either.



To their credit, they were somewhat helpful in identifying the mysterious rivet.  It is normally used for fuel tanks because the mandrel provides an air and water-tight seal.  They indicated it's meant for riveting the lexan to the door.  No, I don't quite get that one either.



Anyway, they said just follow the instructions provided.  Here's the problem:  they never provided instructions and don't have any available!  They said I could follow the ZAC plans for the bubble doors (pictorial guides), but I always saw those as a bit cryptic.



Okay, I'm done complaining now.  I'm getting back to work on my doors.



Dan

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

Dan,

I installed the Skyshop doors a couple years back, and I'm not sure if they've changed since, but a couple things about mine that may help:



1. The material that my windows were made of, was not acrylic (plexi) or lexan (polycarbonate). It is a softer material that is popular with tradeshow and display booth manufacturers. When I got the doors, I did a web search and found that this industrial material was more tolerant of drilling, available in a UV-resistant coating, and optically excellent.  I remember trimming an edge with snips! Upside:  You can drill it with normal bits, and rivet it with standard rivet hole sizes. I still put small plastic washers under the rivet heads (I had a bunch on hand). 150 hours and no issues.  Downside: The material is a little softer, and I think scratches more easily, but I don't have excessive scratches after many careful cleanings (never ammonia, always water and Plexus).  



I just searched all my stored docs and links, and can't find the trade name of the stuff.



2. The gas strut:  Its short length, and attachment very close to the door hinge (door end), puts quite a bit of stress on the door because of poor mechanical advantage.  In other than summer weather, it generally won't hold the door in the up position.  The design might have been better with a longer strut and door-end attachment a little farther away from the hinge.  However, no excessive wear on my door, and I have been happy with them actually. I installed using the dimensions/comments on pics at the Skyshop website ( http://skyshops.org/701%20bin/door%20install%20pic.JPG   http://skyshops.org/701%20bin/door%20install%20pic2.JPG )



3. Hinge:  Consider replacing the provided hinge pin with one that sticks out of the hinge about an inch (i.e. longer), and bend this extra to 90deg, and use it as a handle to allow fast insertion and removal.. so you can fly without the doors when it's hot. It's really fun!



4. The mystery rivets:  Just had a thought -- I remember that the stress on the attach point on the door, for the gas strut, is high. Maybe these rivets are a little stronger? Not sure if they retain a steel mandrel like the Avex ones? If you think they're stronger, may want to consider using them at that location..



Bill Mileski

701 912S 150 or so hrs

Ledyard, CT



 	  txpilot wrote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  They seem to have a lot of 701 stuff on their website yet, for a company not supporting 701s. 



do not archive 



Kevin 	




I asked them about that.  They said they really don't have control of their website anymore.  They want to remove that information since they don't have anything for Zenith Aircraft in stock anymore.  No, I don't get it either.



To their credit, they were somewhat helpful in identifying the mysterious rivet.  It is normally used for fuel tanks because the mandrel provides an air and water-tight seal.  They indicated it's meant for riveting the lexan to the door.  No, I don't quite get that one either.



Anyway, they said just follow the instructions provided.  Here's the problem:  they never provided instructions and don't have any available!  They said I could follow the ZAC plans for the bubble doors (pictorial guides), but I always saw those as a bit cryptic.



Okay, I'm done complaining now.  I'm getting back to work on my doors.



Dan

RayStL

Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 36

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

I have the doors too. I believe they use extruded polyester. I forget the brand name. It appears to be available in Europe but I could not find it available on this continent.  It has properties very similar to polycarbonate (e.g. Lexan).  I miscut a panel on one side initially so ended up getting some polycarbonate from Aircraft   Spruce. Both sides have stress cracks.



On the safety latch subject, these doors have an extra â€˜tabâ€™ that can be used from the inside to snug the back end into the fuselage. On climbout in one flight the main latch opened on my side (not sure if I hit it with my hand by mistake or if  I never secured it properly in the first place). The door front opened like a mouth with just the back latch holding it until I got the door closed again. 



- ray

_________________
Ray St-Laurent
701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine

billmileski

Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 68
Location: Ledyard, CT

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

Okay, I stumbled upon a pic of my doors before installation, and the protective film says "Bayer Axpet". Web search confirms they are polyester sheet.  I am surprised you see any stress cracking in this material because it seemed to plastically deform (e.g. bend a crease by hand and it gets cloudy and stretches). Maybe I'm mis-remembering..



Bill



 	  RayStL wrote: 	
		  I have the doors too. I believe they use extruded polyester. I forget the brand name. It appears to be available in Europe but I could not find it available on this continent.  It has properties very similar to polycarbonate (e.g. Lexan).  I miscut a panel on one side initially so ended up getting some polycarbonate from Aircraft   Spruce. Both sides have stress cracks.



On the safety latch subject, these doors have an extra â€˜tabâ€™ that can be used from the inside to snug the back end into the fuselage. On climbout in one flight the main latch opened on my side (not sure if I hit it with my hand by mistake or if  I never secured it properly in the first place). The door front opened like a mouth with just the back latch holding it until I got the door closed again. 



- ray

RayStL

Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 36

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Other Door Questions - Skyshop Products

I was surprised too. I can only assume it was builder error. Perhaps I should have lowered the pressure on my rivet gun.??



- ray

_________________
Ray St-Laurent
701/Pegastol wings/Suzuki engine

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