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wild.blue(at)verizon.net
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 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Spins again |
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I am always in favor of training, training and more training. However,
there are spins and then there are spins, there are airplanes that will
recover from spins in one condition but will NOT recover in another
condition, instructors who know their stuff and those who don't but may
think they do. Also, aerobatics training is not the same as training for
stall and spin avoidance. Every airplane is different, loading and CG are
critical, so is recovery technique.
The best anti-spin technique is simply to keep the ball in the cage while
avoiding critical angle of attack. But there is no way to recover from an
accelerated stall and spin from two or three hundred feet regardless of your
training. Go try it at altitude and see for yourself. And I'm talking
spins of the half-turn incipient variety. Most airplanes give absolutely NO
indication they are about to break into an accelerated stall. Emergency
maneuvering is not the same as emergency avoidance.
I know lots of you folks are highly skilled, highly experienced pilots.
Many are not. Balls-out, hair on fire is not a piloting technique, it is an
attitude. I'm just saying that when you get that training (which I highly
recommend), be sure you get proper, thorough instruction from someone who
knows from up and DON'T think that what you learned in that Decathlon will
automatically transfer to every other airplane, in every loading condition,
every other day. Yaks and CJ's ain't Decathlons. -50's ain't -52's. Spin
training, yes. Spin avoidance double yes.
There's good reason to be afraid of spins. They are dangerous and must be
approached with great care and caution. Leave the test flying to those
getting paid for it.
Jerry Painter
Wild Blue Aviation
425-876-0865
JP(at)FlyWBa.com
www.FlyWBA.com
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: Spins again |
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Well... I hope I don't lose a friend here. Big Sigh. Seriously... No
personal offense implied or intended in this message.
Jerry, I know in my heart that your point of view here is shared by a
lot of people. That said, I could indeed be the one that is totally out
of line and completely wrong. I want to say that first and get it
understood, because this is not a case of me saying that: "YOU ARE WRONG
AND I AM RIGHT". Far from it.
That said; Here are the things I have questions on: "The best anti-spin
technique is simply to keep the ball in the cage while avoiding critical
angle of attack."
1. Ok, Got it... but when I hop into a J-3 Cub and on a straight in to
final..... jam in full (right or left rudder) and opposite stick to slip
the aircraft down to the correct place to be on the glide path ... Is
that something that I am no longer allowed to do? Because hey....if I
do not manage the angle of attack correctly, it is clearly a set-up for
a stall // spin entry in the landing pattern. True?
Next: "Also, aerobatics training is not the same as training for stall
and spin avoidance." Ok...That could be very true. In the stall and
spin avoidance training, it is possible that you will never do one real
spin. My experience has been that this kind of training takes the
person right up to the spin entry, and if you go just a LITTLE BIT TOO
FAR, the instructor goes berserk, takes control of the aircraft and
makes immediate corrective control entry to avoid that spin at all
costs. Maybe your description of this kind of training is way
different... I hope so... But that is how mine was given.
On the other hand, my "Aerobatic Training" started by actually entering
spins ON PURPOSE. This was a real revelation. As in: "Do you mean
people actually get into a spin on purpose and that they JUDGE YOU on
how well you do it?" Amazing! Then I was exposed to the accelerated
spin entry. A form of accelerated spin entry had an actual name, it was
called "a snap roll". By the way, something no military pilot was ever
really taught from my experience. I guess that's because jet aircraft
just don't do snap rolls all that well (big grin!) I was again amazed
that I would actually be judged on not only how to get into one of these
things, but also on how well I got out of them... On course and without
losing too much in the way of altitude.
So I ask everyone who is reading this discussion this question:
If you were in an airplane as a passenger, which pilot would you feel
more comfortable with tooling around in a YAK-52? The guy who got spin
avoidance training, or the guy who practiced accelerated stalls for fun
and did them without a second thought, because recovery was a matter of
muscle memory and not a matter of having to think about it?
Lastly: "There's good reason to be afraid of spins. They are dangerous
and must be approached with great care and caution."
Well... Read the below list:
Short and Soft field landings.
Flying Partial Panel.
Slips in the traffic pattern.
Intentional Aerobatics.
Formation Flying.
Helicopters (any make or model)
Sky Diving.
Scuba Diving.
Racing. (car, airplane, bicycle... You name it)
Sex. (Certain aspects under certain conditions)
This list easily could cover many pages. The point is, ALL of the above
can be dangerous and must be approached with care, caution and proper
training. However, the idea is to GET trained and then enjoy doing
these things because you have mastered something and have learned that
you no longer have to fear it. Obviously in some cases the training
itself can end up being fun unto itself. I can point to more than one of
the things listed above and say that with certainty!
The bottom line though is that I would replace the word "FEAR" with
"RESPECT". I guess that is really what I am trying to say. I don't
agree with the use of the word FEAR at all. I do not think ANYBODY
should be told, or taught to FEAR something that they can learn to do
properly. Instead....learn to enjoy, and learn to master, every aspect
of something you want to do. Every Pilot should be taught to RESPECT
spins. To respect them before they learn how to do them, and to keep
respecting them AFTER they have learned how to do them. I guess that is
what I am really trying to say about the whole subject.
Being only taught to avoid spins .. To me... Is also a good way to teach
pilots to fear them. Being taught to DO spins takes away the fear, and
teaches a pilot how to respect them. Once you learn control, and learn
respect, avoidance becomes a simple matter of pilot choice.
Mark Bitterlich
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pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: Spins again |
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Get your glider rating, spin training is required!
Frank
N23021
[quote][b]
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bu131(at)swbell.net
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: Spins again |
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flying airplanes and not learning spin recovery techniques is like getting the
key of a F1 car and not being told how and where the brakes are,
pilots should be encouraged to join the IAC and go thru the primary with an instructor
where you are taught to spin and recover in front of a crowd above 2000 feet
it would be worth your money, we also may save a dying sport...
a slip for landing is based on the premise that you have a lot of excess altitude to bleed
therefore your angle of attack is always positive and the stick is way way down
with no chance (I guess someone will screw up eventually) of turning turtle during its
performance. There is no way to do a slip with the stick up. Cross control with attitude control
doesnt kill people.
ak
[quote][b]
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