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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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 Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
[quote][b]
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Ken Potter
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Engine Ground strap |
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Pat;
That is exactly what I did. I attached the engine ground to the lower through bolt on the mount and attached the battery ground to the corresponding nut on the other side of the firewall. Not sure if it is "legal" or not but it seemed logical.
Cheers
Ken
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Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:31 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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At 10:00 PM 1/9/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall? |
Bob Nuckolls, of the AeroElectric connection, does something very similar for his primary ground buss using a brass bolt. Your only problem will be starting with clean connections and keeping them clean.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Engine Ground strap |
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Not a thing wrong with that ground setup. I know of at least 2 SLSA companies that do it that way from the factory. You have a completed ground that grounds all that needs to be grounded at that point. You could add a busbar on the back side and add other items that need grounding, too.
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Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Ken C Thanks for the info. Yes C seemed logical to me too. I was looking at a through the firewall ground bar and where to locate it. I thought CI already have bolts through the firewall why add more?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | Subject: Re: Engine Ground strap
From: kjpotter(at)sympatico.ca
Date: Sat C 10 Jan 2009 04:16:20 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ken Potter" <kjpotter(at)sympatico.ca>
Pat;
That is exactly what I did. I attached the engine ground to the lower through bolt on the mount and attached the battery ground to the corresponding nut on the other side of the firewall. Not sure if it is "legal" or not but it seemed logical.
Cheers
Ken
--------
Ken Potter
Model II C No. 483
Rotax 582 C C-Box C
98% Complete
C-FJKP (marks reserved)
Lanark C Ontario
Read this topic online here:
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[quote][b]
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Roger C Great! Thanks for the feed back. And C yes I planed on a ground buss on the back of firewall.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | Subject: Re: Engine Ground strap
From: ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com
Date: Sat C 10 Jan 2009 06:47:07 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>
Not a thing wrong with that ground setup. I know of at least 2 SLSA companies that do it that way from the factory. You have a completed ground that grounds all that needs to be grounded at that point. You could add a busbar on the back side and add other items that need grounding C too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson C Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223841#223841
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[quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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In a word... no. Sounds good to me.
Getting a reasonable ground to the frame from the battery isn’t usually a problem. Getting a good ground to the engine requires a good strap to jump the engine mount. Missing or corroded grounding straps are a common place to develop charging problems. It’s a good idea to check your grounding connections every year as part of your annual inspection.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Reilly
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Ground strap
Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Guy C Thanks for info C I'll clean the connections initially and its always a problem keeping them clean.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
Date: Sat C 10 Jan 2009 06:28:11 -0800
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: bnn(at)nethere.com
Subject: Re: Engine Ground strap
At 10:00 PM 1/9/2009 C you wrote:
| Quote: | | Kitfoxers C I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall? |
Bob Nuckolls C of the AeroElectric connection C does something very similar for his primary ground buss using a brass bolt. Your only problem will be starting with clean connections and keeping them clean.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done C thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. [quote]
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
ronics.com
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Noel C Thanks for info. I'm going to the aviation department of Farm and Fleet today and buy a grounding strap.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engine Ground strap
Date: Sat C 10 Jan 2009 11:49:51 -0330
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In a word... no. Sounds good to me.
Getting a reasonable ground to the frame from the battery isn’t usually a problem. Getting a good ground to the engine requires a good strap to jump the engine mount. Missing or corroded grounding straps are a common place to develop charging problems. It’s a good idea to check your grounding connections every year as part of your annual inspection.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Reilly
Sent: Saturday C January 10 C 2009 2:30 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Ground strap
Kitfoxers C I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
0 [quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Sounds like a good aviation supply centre. 
I happened to notice you are in Rockford. I was at the EAA first annual national fly in at Rockford back in 1964. Never saw so much corn before in my life! You guys have nice country.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:05 PM
To: kitfox matronics
Subject: RE: Engine Ground strap
Noel, Thanks for info. I'm going to the aviation department of Farm and Fleet today and buy a grounding strap.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engine Ground strap
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:49:51 -0330
In a word... no. Sounds good to me.
Getting a reasonable ground to the frame from the battery isn’t usually a problem. Getting a good ground to the engine requires a good strap to jump the engine mount. Missing or corroded grounding straps are a common place to develop charging problems. It’s a good idea to check your grounding connections every year as part of your annual inspection.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Reilly
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Engine Ground strap
Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listronics.com |
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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jjprobasco(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Even more important than for battery charging, a good engine ground is critical for operation of electronic ignition. I noted a loose engine ground strap on the "collection of parts" I purchased a few years back, after a NSI powered Vixen experienced complete engine stoppage on initial climbout, and was destroyed.
Jeff Probasco
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icubob(at)newnorth.net
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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NAPA has a variety of sizes and gauges too.
bob noffs
[quote] ---
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:46 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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It’s best to use an internal-tooth lock washer on airframe ground lugs. By biting into the metal they provide a low-resistance corrosion-free connection.
Mike Perkins
[quote][b]
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Hello Kitfoxers,
I disagree with the consensus on this thread. To be a purest when it comes to "best practices" in making electrical connections, one should never make an electrical connection that is shared with a structural one. I know that it is most tempting to use an engine mount bolt for that through-the-firewall electrical connection.
All structural bolts have a mechanical load that have the potential to work and eventually become at least "electrically" loose long before they are mechanically loose. All electrical connection bolts should have no other purpose in life other than to carry electrical current. Plus, ideally one should never use dissimilar metals in the electrical circuit path. A copper braided engine ground strap with a copper ring terminal connected to a separate copper or brass through-the-fire wall bolt is ideal. Mixing steel and copper at electrical connections should always be avoided. Using copper or brass double serrated washers at these connections are required for best electrical "bite".
When the battery is on the rear side of the firewall, this is one of the most critical electrical connections to make well.
John Marzluf
Columbus Ohio
Outback, 912S
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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John C This is why I asked the question to start with. But C being a "purest" is sometimes a study in futility. If you use the airframe for ground you have to mix dissimilar metals at connections. I'd rather have a ground lead back to battery 100% of the time C but the boys that commented that there is nothing wrong with using the engine mount bolt for getting ground through the firewall are knowledgeable and numerous enough to have convinced me. But C I definitely appreciate your response. I am not an electrical engineer and was more of a perfectionist earlier in life. Now I just want to get the job done safely.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Tue C 13 Jan 2009 17:41:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Engine Ground strap
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Hello Kitfoxers C
I disagree with the consensus on this thread. To be a purest when it comes to "best practices" in making electrical connections C one should never make an electrical connection that is shared with a structural one. I know that it is most tempting to use an engine mount bolt for that through-the-firewall electrical connection.
All structural bolts have a mechanical load that have the potential to work and eventually become at least "electrically" loose long before they are mechanically loose. All electrical connection bolts should have no other purpose in life other than to carry electrical current. Plus C ideally one should never use dissimilar metals in the electrical circuit path. A copper braided engine ground strap with a copper ring terminal connected to a separate copper or brass through-the-fire wall bolt is ideal. Mixing steel and copper at electrical connections should always be avoided. Using copper or brass double serrated washers at these connections are required for best electrical "bite".
When the battery is on the rear side of the firewall C this is one of the most critical electrical connections to make well.
John Marzluf
Columbus Ohio
Outback C 912S
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote]
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ronics.com
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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I think John is right on this one. It makes sense that any bolt carrying current could also easily corrode thereby weakening it. A separate bolt to connecting the engine to ground to the frame is probably advisable. The attachment to the frame is probably best located in a place that doesn’t carry too much structural load and can be easily replaced if it starts to corrode.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C975BC.14B44630[/img]
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
912 almost installed
Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:51 PM
To: kitfox matronics
Subject: RE: Engine Ground strap
John, This is why I asked the question to start with. But, being a "purest" is sometimes a study in futility. If you use the airframe for ground you have to mix dissimilar metals at connections. I'd rather have a ground lead back to battery 100% of the time, but the boys that commented that there is nothing wrong with using the engine mount bolt for getting ground through the firewall are knowledgeable and numerous enough to have convinced me. But, I definitely appreciate your response. I am not an electrical engineer and was more of a perfectionist earlier in life. Now I just want to get the job done safely.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:41:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Engine Ground strap
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Hello Kitfoxers,
I disagree with the consensus on this thread. To be a purest when it comes to "best practices" in making electrical connections, one should never make an electrical connection that is shared with a structural one. I know that it is most tempting to use an engine mount bolt for that through-the-firewall electrical connection.
All structural bolts have a mechanical load that have the potential to work and eventually become at least "electrically" loose long before they are mechanically loose. All electrical connection bolts should have no other purpose in life other than to carry electrical current. Plus, ideally one should never use dissimilar metals in the electrical circuit path. A copper braided engine ground strap with a copper ring terminal connected to a separate copper or brass through-the-fire wall bolt is ideal. Mixing steel and copper at electrical connections should always be avoided. Using copper or brass double serrated washers at these connections are required for best electrical "bite".
When the battery is on the rear side of the firewall, this is one of the most critical electrical connections to make well.
John Marzluf
Columbus Ohio
Outback, 912S
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:09 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Pat,
We tend to beat dead horses on these subjects. I just wanted to point out some of the concerns of mixing electrical and structural in our building. What works fine and lasts a long time is what most people go for. But, the gotcha's are still there lurking all along. Knowing about and watching for loose connections and corroded bolts etc., are what is needed here. Or you can choose to make all electrical connections in a better, more reliable way. --Separate, autonomous, with no 100 hp engine's dirty steel mount tugging on your nice clean corrosion free and tight copper/brass starter motor ground connection. ; ^)
John Marzluf
Outback, 912S
Columbus, Ohio
In a message dated 1/13/2009 6:23:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, patreilly43(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | John, This is why I asked the question to start with. But, being a "purest" is sometimes a study in futility. If you use the airframe for ground you have to mix dissimilar metals at connections. I'd rather have a ground lead back to battery 100% of the time, but the boys that commented that there is nothing wrong with using the engine mount bolt for getting ground through the firewall are knowledgeable and numerous enough to have convinced me. But, I definitely appreciate your response. I am not an electrical engineer and was more of a perfectionist earlier in life. Now I just want to get the job done safely.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: Engine Ground strap |
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Noel,
My point was more over concern for the electrical quality of the connection. Long before there is a corrosion structural concern for the engine mount's bolt. The electrical connection will electrically fail due to corrosion at the dissimilar metals joint. When you factor in the constant motion of these steel parts pulling on one another with a steel bolt holding them together, the addition of an electrical current passing through this junction is a prescription for everything to be watched closely over time. Or you can mostly avoid the whole thing by making your electrical connections separately with all compatible electrical materials.
John Marzluf
Outback, 912S
Columbus, Ohio
In a message dated 1/13/2009 6:50:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
| Quote: |
I think John is right on this one. It makes sense that any bolt carrying current could also easily corrode thereby weakening it. A separate bolt to connecting the engine to ground to the frame is probably advisable. The attachment to the frame is probably best located in a place that doesn’t carry too much structural load and can be easily replaced if it starts to corrode.
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
912 almost installed
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
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