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ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

I just came across an advertisement for a 1.87 LB ELT with a 6 year battery life.



<http://www.kannad.com/en/safety/index.php?id=51>



Is this 406 MHz a replacement for the 121.5 MHz standard that I'm familiar with?



What are you using? What antenna considerations should there be? I assume an external

antenna should be on top since an ELT would most likely be deployed on the ground and

hopefully with the aircraft right side up.



Maybe you don't even need an external antenna.



Recommendations?



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

That is my understanding - $406$ is an acceptable replacement for 121.5

Consider buying the lowest cost to meet the  FAA requirements (121.5) 

then buy Spot and choose the tracking feature that best meets your 

needs. Spot works and works as intended and as advertised. Very 

popular solution for pilots and wilderness adventurers. Much less 

expensive and more functional than the PLBs that was the first 

generation of such devices.

Lots of discussion on other Matronics forums as well as on the 

Internet. Check the Aeorelectric forum archives.

Paul

=======

At 01:28 AM 1/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<paul(at)eucleides.com>



Is this 406 MHz a replacement for the 121.5 MHz standard that I'm 

familiar with?



Recommendations?



--

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Re: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

 	  Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: 	
		  I just came across an advertisement for a 1.87 LB ELT with a 6 year battery life.



<http>



Is this 406 MHz a replacement for the 121.5 MHz standard that I'm familiar with?



What are you using? What antenna considerations should there be? I assume an external

antenna should be on top since an ELT would most likely be deployed on the ground and

hopefully with the aircraft right side up.



Maybe you don't even need an external antenna.



Recommendations?



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell 	




The 406 is only REQUIRED if you plan on flying into Canada or another country.  121.5 is still USA, you just wont have satellite monitoring, it will rely on overhead traffic and other pilots to hear the signal and get the ball rolling.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

temco(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

Paul



The ELT standard is changing from 121.5 MHz to 406 MHz and in Canada in the

next while we will be mandated to change over to 406 MHz. There are several

aviation organizations lobbying the Gov't to allow alternatives such as SPOT

to be used for small aircraft. So far in this Country the DOT (our

equivalent of your FAA) is not budging on this request from the aviation

groups. I don't recall the exact dates for the change over but I believe it

is in the next year. Perhaps Noel could chime in on this. This change in

Canada is also a point of discussion with the AOPA , FAA, EAA and others as

the change here would affect small aircraft such as our group flying from

the lower 48 through Canada to Alaska.



The way I now understand it --- after implementation an aircraft going from

the lower 48 to Alaska would need 406 MHz ELT to make the trip through

Canada. 



This story is still on going here and things may change depending on how

much the DOT listens to the Aviation Groups.



Ted Palamarek

Edmonton, Ab

Kitfox 4-1200/912





--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

At 08:01 AM 1/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The way I now understand it --- after implementation an aircraft going from

the lower 48 to Alaska would need 406 MHz ELT to make the trip through

Canada.


	


Ted,

         I have a question on the Canadian implementation. Will they 

allow 406 PLBs? Or must you have an aircraft model with G-switch?

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

At 01:28 AM 1/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I assume an external

antenna should be on top since an ELT would most likely be deployed 

on the ground and

hopefully with the aircraft right side up.



Maybe you don't even need an external antenna.


	


Nice thing about a Kitfox is that the antenna can be internal. The 

cloth doesn't impede transmission.





Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Mike C

Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: Re: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

The Canadian implementation of the 406 ELT will be phased in over the next 2 years starting next month. It must be an impact activated device so only a proper ELT will do. The grapevine is saying that Transport Canada (TC) will look the other way when US planes are flying into or through Canada without the 406 ELT. 



The grapevine is also saying there is going to be an 11th hour meeting between TC and the stake holders that could see some changes but no specifics.



The new ELT will have to be registered to the aircraft owner so that any signals will be directly traceable to the plane and there is the option of transmitting GPS co-ordinates. I understand that the 406 will transmit at 5 watts instead of the  1/2 watt transmission of the 121.5. This will help when using an antenna inside the frame.



Battery packs will be expense (Li-Ion) but they are good for 5 years. The kicker in Canada is the annual re-cert which will be at least triple the cost of the old units.



I'm usually in the shadows but this info was gathered from a seminar I attended late last year.



Mike C

Simcoe, Ontario

Model II 582

temco(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

Guy



The way I understand it now is that the aircraft must have the ELT mounted

in the aircraft with an inertia switch that would activate the ELT in the

event of a crash. The aviation groups in Canada are still actively lobbying

the DOT to allow the PLB and SPOT type instruments to be acceptable in small

acrft such as ours rather than the expensive 406MHz ELT.



This story still has some legs and no legislation has been enacted yet to

make the 406MHz mandatory. Currently our Fed Gov't is not sitting and will

not be sitting till the later part of this month. I personally think that

this issue will take a back seat to the economy and won't be acted on for a

number of months. I will try getting you some further info on this issue in

Canada.



Ted Palamarek

Edmonton, Ab

Kitfox 4-1200/912ul



Do Not Archive



 



--

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

On Thu, January 15, 2009 7:49 am, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   The 406 is only REQUIRED if you plan on flying into Canada or another country.  121.5

 is still USA, you just wont have satellite monitoring, it will rely on overhead

 traffic and other pilots to hear the signal and get the ball rolling.


	


In an article by the EAA;



A note to those flying outside the U.S.: While 406 MHz ELTs are not mandatory for

operating in the U.S., pilot’s who fly internationally - to Canada, Mexico, etc. -

after February 1, 2009, will be required to upgrade their ELTs to the new ICAO

standard 406 MHz units. EAA is working with Transport Canada to obtain an exemption to

this regulation for aircraft transitioning through Canada to Alaska, or flying from

the northeastern part of the U.S. to the west where the most direct flight route

requires a short transition through Canadian airspace.



<http://www.eaa.org/news/2008/2008-09-04_elt.asp>



They have further comments intended to clarify here:



<http://www.eaa.org/news/2008/2008-09-04_elt_info.asp>



The problem I see is practical. It would appear that getting a 406.28 MHz compliant

ELT will cost around $4k with the interface to the NAV system for GPS coordinates.

Using the pricing for the unit I originally mentioned from Aircraft Spruce:



<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/av/elt_kannad.html>



With accessories and the interface kit, this is around $4k. That's pretty expensive.



Whereas a more reasonable ELT would be around $200. This one looks pretty good.



<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ack_tech.php>



Since there is no requirement in the US for any update, just that the satellite

detection system is going down the end of this month. Maybe using a PLB such as this

Ameri-King unit would be more affordable as an add - on.



<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ak451PLB.php>



However there are many SPOT devices. This one requires an annual subscription. I don't

think any of them meet the requirements for 406 compliance in say Canada or Mexico.



<https://mysattracker.com/>



Since there will be no more satellite tracking of 121.5 ELT signals, I feel I should

do something more but not $4k worth of something.



Anybody have an opinion on using this one?



<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/ak451PLB.php>



I don't see anything about crash detection. Maybe that's why it is less money.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

I have to call a TC inspector tomorrow.... I'll bounce this question off

him.



It is however my understanding that unless an imminent threat is encountered

by allowing an aircraft to fly, the plane in question has to meet the

specifications for flight authority in the country of registration.  It is

then allowed to fly in Canada.  That means not only the crowd that passes

through on their way to and from Alaska are legal but the folks form the

eastern seaboard that summer in Labrador are also legal.  I think a plane

and pilot has 180 days before any requirement to get a Canadian registration

or license.  In that 180 days I don't think TC even has the right to ramp

check a foreign registered plane without a request from the home country.

They do have the right to examine documents.



As far as I know the exceptions are... PP-UL and PP-Rec (Pilot

Permit-Ultralight, Pilot Permit-Recreational, Canada)are not allowed to fly

any Canadian aircraft, not registered UL in Canada, south of the border.

Holders of U.S. LSA licenses are not permitted to fly in Canada.  The

excuses, not reasons, are the same in both cases...  Incompatibility of the

medical requirements.



Canadian Ultralight specifications are currently that an ultralight aircraft

has to be under 1200Lb.(Basic)  1232Lb. for the "Advanced Ultralight" MTOW.

They must also have a stall speed, in the landing configuration, of no more

than 45 mph. At MTOW.  This potentially puts Canadian ultralight aircraft

far above the weight characteristics of the US ultralight.(254 lb dry) In

Canada if it flies and carries any living body it must be registered.  Even

our balloons are registered and their pilots are licensed.



Another difference is; in Canada an ultralight is defined by the aircraft

not by the registration.  My 'Fox is registered Amateur built but I can fly

it as an ultralight, which I do on floats (no UL endorsement for floats) and

with the 121.5 ELT.  Another difference in regulations which you guys may

find interesting is in Canada there is no endorsement for conventional

landing gear.  Anyone with half a brain will get tail wheel training but it

is not a requirement.  Funny we don't have thousands of tail draggers

plummeting out of the skies like rain in a thunderstorm.



I hope that the new President and the old PM will take a group of people

(FAA and TC lords) and lock them in a small basement somewhere, with bad

plumbing, no air conditioning and nothing but baked beans and prunes.  Leave

them there until they get a reciprocal agreement.  They can do the same

thing the Cardinals do...  Send up white smoke to notify an agreement.  What

are the bets they would have an agreement before supper the first day 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

infow(at)mts.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

Hey... Hey there Noel,

Kind of makes you wonder where there coming from!

Word out is that it may happen this year...

Ron Leclerc

Winnipeg, BRRRRR(-49 here this morning) Mb

CH701 #7-6699 Scratch Build



 





 I have to call a TC inspector tomorrow.... I'll bounce this

 question off him.



 It is however my understanding that unless an imminent threat is

 encountered by allowing an aircraft to fly, the plane in question

 has to meet the specifications for flight authority in the

 country of registration.  It is then allowed to fly in Canada.

 That means not only the crowd that passes through on their way to

 and from Alaska are legal but the folks form the eastern seaboard

 that summer in Labrador are also legal.  I think a plane and

 pilot has 180 days before any requirement to get a Canadian

 registration or license.  In that 180 days I don't think TC even

 has the right to ramp check a foreign registered plane without a

 request from the home country. They do have the right to examine

 documents.



 As far as I know the exceptions are... PP-UL and PP-Rec (Pilot

 Permit-Ultralight, Pilot Permit-Recreational, Canada)are not

 allowed to fly any Canadian aircraft, not registered UL in

 Canada, south of the border. Holders of U.S. LSA licenses are not

 permitted to fly in Canada.  The excuses, not reasons, are the

 same in both cases...  Incompatibility of the medical

 requirements.



 Canadian Ultralight specifications are currently that an

 ultralight aircraft has to be under 1200Lb.(Basic)  1232Lb. for

 the "Advanced Ultralight" MTOW. They must also have a stall

 speed, in the landing configuration, of no more than 45 mph. At

 MTOW.  This potentially puts Canadian ultralight aircraft far

 above the weight characteristics of the US ultralight.(254 lb

 dry) In Canada if it flies and carries any living body it must be

 registered.  Even our balloons are registered and their pilots

 are licensed.



 Another difference is; in Canada an ultralight is defined by the

 aircraft not by the registration.  My 'Fox is registered Amateur

 built but I can fly it as an ultralight, which I do on floats (no

 UL endorsement for floats) and with the 121.5 ELT.  Another

 difference in regulations which you guys may find interesting is

 in Canada there is no endorsement for conventional landing gear.

 Anyone with half a brain will get tail wheel training but it is

 not a requirement.  Funny we don't have thousands of tail

 draggers plummeting out of the skies like rain in a thunderstorm.



 I hope that the new President and the old PM will take a group of

 people (FAA and TC lords) and lock them in a small basement

 somewhere, with bad plumbing, no air conditioning and nothing but

 baked beans and prunes.  Leave them there until they get a

 reciprocal agreement.  They can do the same thing the Cardinals

 do...  Send up white smoke to notify an agreement.  What are the

 bets they would have an agreement before supper the first day 



 Noel



 --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: ELT - 406 MHz or 121.5 standard?

Problem as i see it is the new system only adds an ident. to the signal.

That means when they send out the search team they know if they are looking

fo a 2 seater or two hundred seater.  The GPS coordinates is an expensive

add on.  I think something like the spot with a 121.5 should be enough for

private planes.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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