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Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris

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tech(at)sonexaircraft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris

Good Morning Jabiru Enthusiast,



We at Sonex Aircraft LLC and AeroConversions LLC like to remain "hands-off"

on the public lists but we do feel it is necessary to respond to Peter

Harris (whose posting is copied at the bottom of this response) directly in

this public forum.



Specifically:



Mr. Harris was supplied an AeroCarb which had an anodized aluminum slide

with a thin delrin anti-friction gasket. He states he was supplied an

Aerocarb with "no teflon liner". We have never offered a "teflon liner",

though earlier AeroCarbs had teflon coated slides with no delrin gasket.

Those were discontinued in favor of the anodized slide delrin gasket, which

we continue to supply as standard equipment. His claims that we offer a

teflon liner on the website are simply incorrect. He is perhaps confusing

the delrin gasket with a "teflon slide".



The outrigged throttle attachment performs well when properly installed.

Proper installation is described in full detail in the AeroCarb's

installation manual, including specific part numbers for rod ends, throttle

cables, etc. Current AeroCarbs are shipped with an additional, alternative

throttle connection which eliminates any chance of binding caused by

improper installation, but requires a reversing throttle quadrant.



Mr. Harris packed his AeroCarb with grease. Grease may be great on bulldozer

tracks and railroad car couplers but has no place in an AeroCarb.



We stand behind our products 100%. We asked Mr. Harris to return his

AeroCarb for a free warranty inspection. He declined, stating it was "futile

to return the carb unless you are willing to resolve the design issues". We

asked for photos of his installation and they were never provided. Mr.

Harris declined to accept the help we were offering and was clear he would

not have been happy with any effort we would have made short of redesigning

our product to his specific desires.



Here is the full text of the final email sent (March 9, 2007) from the Sonex

Aircraft tech support desk to Mr. Harris:



---Begin



Hi Peter,



We have more experience than anyone with the AeroCarb. Your binding is not

normal which means there is an installation error or a defective part. We

are asking you once more to return the carb for a warranty inspection, and

to send us photos of your installation. Barring that we are unable to help

you.



If you you do not wish to take advantage of the warranty service/inspection

of your AeroCarb, then we ask that you do not advise others on how to "fix"

or install their AeroCarb, and when sharing your experience with others

please be sure to tell them that we asked for the carb back for a warranty

inspection and asked for photos to help diagnose your installation. We are

not aware of any unresolved AeroCarb problems from customers who were

willing to install the Aerocarb per our instructions and/or return their

carb for inspection when problems occurred. We do know of people who have

refused to work with us and have either given up on their Aerocarb, or have

gone to great and unnecessary lengths to "fix" it.



We stand behind our products 100%, for the safety of others, which is why we

have repeatedly asked for photos of your installation and the return of your

AeroCarb for inspection.



---End

We have supported hundreds of AeroCarb installations on a wide variety of

aircraft and engines. I have personally flown my AeroCarb-equipped Jabiru

3300-powered Sonex over 400 hours in the last 4.5 years. It bears repeating

- no one has more experience with the AeroCarb than we do - and no one is

more qualified than us to support our product.



This will be our only post on the topic. If you have questions about the

AeroCarb we encourage you to visit our websites:



www.aeroconversions.com

www.sonexaircraft.com



Or email us directly at the addresses listed below.



Blue Skies,



Kerry Fores



Sonex Aircraft LLC

PO Box 2521

Oshkosh, WI 54903-2521

Tech Line: (920) 230-TECH (8324)

Mon, Wed. and Fri. 10 AM to 12 AM and 2PM to 4PM CT



Orders and General Info:

Ph.920-231-8297

Fax (920) 426-8333

http://www.sonexaircraft.com



Please use the following e-mail addresses to Contact Sonex Aircraft:

Sales Info:     sales(at)sonexaircraft.com

Orders:          orders(at)sonexaircraft.com

Accounting:    accounting(at)sonexaircraft.com

Tech Support: tech(at)sonexaircraft.com



___________________________________________

Subject:            RE: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle Roughness

From:            Peter Harris (peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com)

Date:            Thu Jan 15 - 8:46 PM

J

I would recommend against using Aerocarb especially on the J3300 based on

personal experience. I was supplied with an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.

The slide worked on anodized metal to metal and jammed hard.

The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever which causes the slide

to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The attachment to cable is

off centre and not even co planar with the slide.

A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests were

ignored.

I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the vacuum at low throttle

settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle for a missed approach

makes it jam harder because of the offset cable attachment.

I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I have a copy

of the correspondence.

When I asked for a refund I was told to sell it on eBay.

I would not have the conscience to give it away .

Peter

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JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris

Why would anyone pack a carbureteur with greae, the Bing is not unlike a SU  carb and I recall that they used a small amount of VERY light oil as a damper  for the slide. Mr Harris needs to say "thankyou" and return his carb to you  as you have suggested. Please no flame!

  

 John  Read

CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax:  303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  In a message dated 1/16/2009 9:21:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,  tech(at)sonexaircraft.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Sonex Tech Support    <tech(at)sonexaircraft.com>



Good Morning Jabiru    Enthusiast,



We at Sonex Aircraft LLC and AeroConversions LLC like to    remain "hands-off"

on the public lists but we do feel it is necessary to    respond to Peter

Harris (whose posting is copied at the bottom of this    response) directly in

this public forum.



Specifically:



Mr.    Harris was supplied an AeroCarb which had an anodized aluminum slide

with a    thin delrin anti-friction gasket. He states he was supplied an

Aerocarb    with "no teflon liner". We have never offered a "teflon liner",

though    earlier AeroCarbs had teflon coated slides with no delrin gasket.

Those    were discontinued in favor of the anodized slide delrin gasket, which

we    continue to supply as standard equipment. His claims that we offer a

teflon    liner on the website are simply incorrect. He is perhaps confusing

the    delrin gasket with a "teflon slide".



The outrigged throttle attachment    performs well when properly installed.

Proper installation is described in    full detail in the AeroCarb's

installation manual, including specific part    numbers for rod ends, throttle

cables, etc. Current AeroCarbs are shipped    with an additional, alternative

throttle connection which eliminates any    chance of binding caused by

improper installation, but requires a reversing    throttle quadrant.



Mr. Harris packed his AeroCarb with grease. Grease    may be great on bulldozer

tracks and railroad car couplers but has no place    in an AeroCarb.



We stand behind our products 100%. We asked Mr. Harris    to return his

AeroCarb for a free warranty inspection. He declined, stating    it was "futile

to return the carb unless you are willing to resolve the    design issues". We

asked for photos of his installation and they were never    provided. Mr.

Harris declined to accept the help we were offering and was    clear he would

not have been happy with any effort we would have made short    of redesigning

our product to his specific desires.



Here is the full    text of the final email sent (March 9, 2007) from the Sonex

Aircraft tech    support desk to Mr. Harris:



---Begin



Hi Peter,



We have    more experience than anyone with the AeroCarb. Your binding is not

normal    which means there is an installation error or a defective part. We

are    asking you once more to return the carb for a warranty inspection, and

to    send us photos of your installation. Barring that we are unable to    help

you.



If you you do not wish to take advantage of the warranty    service/inspection

of your AeroCarb, then we ask that you do not advise    others on how to "fix"

or install their AeroCarb, and when sharing your    experience with others

please be sure to tell them that we asked for the    carb back for a warranty

inspection and asked for photos to help diagnose    your installation. We are

not aware of any unresolved AeroCarb problems    from customers who were

willing to install the Aerocarb per our    instructions and/or return their

carb for inspection when problems    occurred. We do know of people who have

refused to work with us and have    either given up on their Aerocarb, or have

gone to great and unnecessary    lengths to "fix" it.



We stand behind our products 100%, for the safety    of others, which is why we

have repeatedly asked for photos of your    installation and the return of your

AeroCarb for    inspection.



---End

We have supported hundreds of AeroCarb    installations on a wide variety of

aircraft and engines. I have personally    flown my AeroCarb-equipped Jabiru

3300-powered Sonex over 400 hours in the    last 4.5 years. It bears repeating

- no one has more experience with the    AeroCarb than we do - and no one is

more qualified than us to support our    product.



This will be our only post on the topic. If you have questions    about the

AeroCarb we encourage you to visit our    websites:



www.aeroconversions.com

www.sonexaircraft.com



Or    email us directly at the addresses listed below.



Blue    Skies,



Kerry Fores



Sonex Aircraft LLC

PO Box 2521

Oshkosh,    WI 54903-2521

Tech Line: (920) 230-TECH (8324)

Mon, Wed. and Fri. 10 AM    to 12 AM and 2PM to 4PM CT



Orders and General    Info:

Ph.920-231-8297

Fax (920)    426-8333

http://www.sonexaircraft.com



Please use the following    e-mail addresses to Contact Sonex Aircraft:

Sales Info:   �    sales(at)sonexaircraft.com

Orders:             orders(at)sonexaircraft.com

Accounting:       accounting(at)sonexaircraft.com

Tech Support:    tech(at)sonexaircraft.com



___________________________________________

Subject:               RE: Re: 3300A - Full Throttle    Roughness

From:            Peter Harris    (peterjfharris(at)bigpond.com)

Date:          �    Thu Jan 15 - 8:46 PM

J

I would recommend against using Aerocarb    especially on the J3300 based on

personal experience. I was supplied with    an Aerocarb with no Teflon liner.

The slide worked on anodized metal to    metal and jammed hard.

The slide is pulled and pushed by an outrigged lever    which causes the slide

to twist and jam whenever pressure is applied. The    attachment to cable is

off centre and not even co planar with the    slide.

A Teflon liner is offered on the website but my several requests    were

ignored.

I packed it with grease but it still jammed under the    vacuum at low throttle

settings and any attempt to quickly open throttle    for a missed approach

makes it jam harder because of the offset cable    attachment.

I attempted to discuss changes to the design but was abused. I    have a copy

of the correspondence.

When I asked for a refund I was told    to sell it on eBay.

I would not have the conscience to give it away    .

Peter  = Use  lities  y                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  =========================<             - List Contribution Web Site  ;                          �  =========================



	






complete coverage from the nation's capital.

  [quote][b]

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Peter H

Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 197

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: Sonex Aircraft Responds to Peter Harris

Good evening Aerocarb enthusiasts.

I suggest that this is not the place to conduct an Aerocarb argument and I

will not be responding further except to correct the record. My carb slide

was not coated with any product, it was anodized and ran on the Delrin

gasket which however was fitted on one side only, and on the uncoated

anodized surface of the frame on it's face. My contact with the supplier was

based on preliminary bench testing when I reported the very high friction

between these two uncoated anodized surfaces which were jamming due to the

off centre action of the lever, and I requested the Teflon coated slide

option offered on the website at the time. I made the request three times

but was ignored.

Then I used grease and found a big improvement in bench testing and so I

completed the installation but subsequently the slide jammed when I started

the engine.

The cable installation was strictly according to Aerocarb instructions, but

the off centre action of the carb lever assembly which is part of the

product design, caused twisting and jamming at low throttle settings when

there is significant pressure on the slide.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From the responses from the supplier I formed the opinion that Aerocarb were

making very strong efforts to blame my installation for the issues even
	


though my complaint and suggestions were based on bench testing and

consequently I decided not to return it until the design issues were

addressed. The response from Aerocarb below confirms that others have had

similar problems with the product. 

When another operator at my field suffered jamming of his Teflon coated

slide on late final (Sonex J2200) and was forced to recover with the

adjustment of flap I decided that the carb was unsafe and requested a return

for credit. 

I was refused warranty and told to sell it on eBay.



Anyone who is curious to know what really happened may contact me direct

(except for those on this site engaged in Aerocarb promotion) as I have a

complete record of all of the correspondence.

Qualified as an engineer I have given my informed opinion about what I

consider to be basic design faults in the product which could be very easily

fixed. You may like to inspect the product and decide for yourself.

If you decide to use the Aerocarb I suggest that you make sure you have a

slide that is coated preferably with Teflon on both sides and be very

careful in operation at the lower throttle settings or with quick throttle

movements.

However based on my own experience I can only assume that the Teflon coated

slide is no longer available.

Take care,

Peter



--

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