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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

I had my 1st big challenge today with wind!  The forecast was for 5mph winds however the wind was low but gusty and turbulent at times and variable in direction. On my final I checked the AWOS and it had winds at 7knots from 180o and I was landing on 23.



The air was a bit rough descending down through 500 to 100 feet and the wind was pushing me away from centerline. I had the plane in a  crap  on most of the approach keeping center. Once I got lower 100 feet I went to the slide slip.  It took a boot full or right rudder to get the nose straight with the runway. I think I was close to max deflection. Of course once the nose is straight ailerons have to be turned into the wind or the dreaded side drift occurs. Anyway i used power all the way down to flair.



I usually approach 65 mph to 70 I used 75 to 80 on this one.  All was looking pretty good until I backed off the power. At this point I am in the round out stage and as the speed decreases I start drifting again and the nose starts trying to go into the wind again.



After a bit of fighting the wind I touch down ok but the plane bounces back up about 10 to 15 feet. I chase it with power touch down again bounce again and finally touch down one last time and stay planted!



Asphalt seem to aggravate cross wind landing a good bit over grass.



What method do you guys use during cross wind landings crab or sideslip?



Any suggestions for me? i know I need more practice for one since I am

a low time pilot.



Grant

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  I had my 1st big challenge today with wind!  The forecast was for 5mph winds however the wind was low but gusty and turbulent at times and variable in direction. On my final I checked the AWOS and it had winds at 7knots from 180o and I was landing on 23.



The air was a bit rough descending down through 500 to 100 feet and the wind was pushing me away from centerline. I had the plane in a  crap  on most of the approach keeping center. Once I got lower 100 feet I went to the slide slip.  It took a boot full or right rudder to get the nose straight with the runway. I think I was close to max deflection. Of course once the nose is straight ailerons have to be turned into the wind or the dreaded side drift occurs. Anyway i used power all the way down to flair.



I usually approach 65 mph to 70 I used 75 to 80 on this one.  All was looking pretty good until I backed off the power. At this point I am in the round out stage and as the speed decreases I start drifting again and the nose starts trying to go into the wind again.



After a bit of fighting the wind I touch down ok but the plane bounces back up about 10 to 15 feet. I chase it with power touch down again bounce again and finally touch down one last time and stay planted!



Asphalt seem to aggravate cross wind landing a good bit over grass.



What method do you guys use during cross wind landings crab or sideslip?



Any suggestions for me? i know I need more practice for one since I am

a low time pilot.



Grant 	




I used the wing-low (sideslip) method in my FSII (and in all my 3-axis planes actually). I like to get the slideslip going fairly early on final, mostly to see how much rudder I'm going to have to hold and to stabilize the descent rate as much as possible. I don't like the "crab and kick" method because the change in sink rate can be abrupt and it doesn't give you time to get things stabilized.



I always did wheel landings in crosswinds and usually carried a little power as well to keep a little extra energy in the equation....



Once in the sideslip I think left/right drift with aileron, fuse alignment with ground track with feet.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Like Lucien, I much prefer slipping all the way down final and for the same reasons he stated. Also, it appears to me that your bounce was at least partly due to carrying more airspeed than ideal at touchdown.



The winds you experienced are considered calm to light in this part of the world. That is not to belittle you or your landing in anyway, just to let you know that with practice (like you are doing) most Kolbs can be safely landed in stronger winds. 



A few months ago there was a low-wing Piper (Cherokee or some a newer incarnation of a Cherokee) wrecked at our airfield in gusting cross-winds. The private pilot who recently earned her ticket refused to get serious cross-wind training in wind conditions over her "personal minimums" not realizing how important it is. When she left on this incident flight the winds were fairly light with very little cross-wind component. When she returned, they were stronger, gusting and directly across the runway. Instead of going to a nearby airport with wind-aligned runway, she figured she could handle it without the training. She got it down without injuring herself but the airplane was bent up. Practice is the only way to learn these skills.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Thanks guys. Yes I know 7kts is not too bad

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Grant



I tend to land using the technique you describe. During my pilot training I 

was taught to retract flaps during cross wind landings to increase control 

effectiveness due to increased landing speed.



Grass runways are always easer for Kolbs to land on so use them were they 

are available.



Also due to our low stall speeds we have the ability to land across the 

runway when the winds pick up. Be considerate of landing patterns by staying 

in the same orientation of the runway as normal till short final. Set up for 

landing as if you are going to land on the down wind side of the runway and 

use your flaps. On short final when you are between runway lights turn into 

the wind and land on the runway. Again common sense prevails. In the 

situation you talked about landing maybe 10 degrees off runway direction and 

more into the wind would have helped without shortening your runway length 

enough to bother you.



I have landed in winds using these techniques where I couldn't taxi without 

a few unintended 360s.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  Thanks guys. Yes I know 7kts  is not too bad  	




Well in my FSII if it was shifty or gusty, even winds around 7kts could be challenging. I had to drive it onto the runway a few times in gusty xwinds, basically flying the thing all the way down to taxi speeds and even to the hangar.



Landing too hot really is kind of dangerous. I adopted the half the gust factor speed increase only, and carried some power into the flare instead. I do that in my current plane as well rather than really try to come in hot. What you want is energy available in those dips that happen in the flare so you can prevent whacking the ground. But you also want the plane flying as little as possible once the wheels are on the ground....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Hi guys , I come from cape cod ma. and most of my 492 hrs were flown in 15 to 25 mph wind and as  I learned to fly in a glider and got my private glider license in a switzer 233 I learned having only one wheel to use the crab aproach and it worked well for me in my Firestar KXP even a Strong cross wind but I must admit to using the entire with of the runway some days landing as much as 25 degrees across the runway but at way below 70mph I mean closer to45 -50  just my 2 cents . Chris

   From: Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:06:09 PM

Subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>

Grant

I tend to land using the technique you describe. During my pilot training I was taught to retract flaps during cross wind landings to increase control effectiveness due to increased landing speed.

Grass runways are always easer for Kolbs to land on so use them were they are available.

Also due to our low stall speeds we have  the ability to land across the runway when the winds pick up. Be considerate of landing patterns by staying in the same orientation of the runway as normal till short final. Set up for landing as if you are going to land on the down wind side of the runway and use your flaps. On short final when you are between runway lights turn into the wind and land on the runway. Again common sense prevails. In the situation you talked about landing maybe 10 degrees off runway direction and more into the wind would have helped without shortening your runway length enough to bother you.

I have landed in winds using these techniques where I couldn't taxi without a few unintended 360s.

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

But you also want the plane flying as little as possible once the wheels 

are on the ground....

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS


	




Lucien:



Push the stick forward on touch down when above flying speed.  It will pin 

it to the ground.



Trying to three point and stall in gusty conditions in a Kolb will usually 

result in the Kolb hovering when we want it on the ground, especially with 

full flaps.



It can be a challenge landing a Kolb in windy, gusty conditions.  Sometimes 

I am more passenger than pilot in severe situations of wind and turbulence.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Grant:

The answer I recommend is go get a little bit of dual instruction in 

crosswind techniques...a couple of hours

with a good instructor ought to do it...    I believe crosswind techniques, 

not just for landings, but takeoffs

as well, fall into that unique category of things that are best learned by 

repetetive hands-on instruction with

a teacher showing and demonstrating.  Crosswind techniques aren't really 

difficult or mysterious, but they

are a little different.  I would definitely not include them in the category 

of things to read about and then go

out to try by yourself on a windy crosswind day. Once the Kolb light comes 

on over your head during the

dual instruction, the techniques will become intuitively simple and you can 

then practice solo in gradually

increasing wind situations until you get where you want to be...  After you 

get good at it, you might even

find yourself looking for crosswind situations just for the fun of executing 

the techniques.



I don't believe it is worth risking your neck or your airplane doing the 

self-teaching thingy.  Those

75 or 80 mph strafing-run approaches ain't the answer...



As usual, worth what ye paid fer it....



beauford, the Aluminum Butcher of Brandon

FF-076



 	  Quote: 	
		   Any suggestions for me? i know I need more practice for one since I am

 a low time pilot.



 Grant





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 25412#225412

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

Lucien:



Push the stick forward on touch down when above flying speed.  It will pin 

it to the ground.



Trying to three point and stall in gusty conditions in a Kolb will usually 

result in the Kolb hovering when we want it on the ground, especially with 

full flaps.



It can be a challenge landing a Kolb in windy, gusty conditions.  Sometimes 

I am more passenger than pilot in severe situations of wind and turbulence.



john h

mkIII 	




That was what I did virtually all of the time. I read about this technique in the paperwork that came with the FSII from the original builder actually.  When I first tried it it was a revelation. It worked perfectly and always planted the plane on the ground. 



I only rarely tried to 3-point mine as it was only truly doable in totally calm conditions. I believe it was either Travis over at Kolb or a friend of mine who was also a kolb pilot that told me the Kolb is generally meant to be wheel landed. So most of the time I did wheel landings and always did if it was windy or shifty.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

At 02:21 PM 1/18/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>



 But you also want the plane flying as little as possible once the wheels are on the ground....

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS 	




 Lucien:



 Push the stick forward on touch down when above flying speed.  It will pin it to the ground.



 Trying to three point and stall in gusty conditions in a Kolb will usually result in the Kolb hovering when we want it on the ground, especially with full flaps.



 It can be a challenge landing a Kolb in windy, gusty conditions 	




 I do exactly the same thing but I also lock my brakes "coming in" with a tail wind or over stall speed.

 You will not nose over with that kind of air speed over you tail, especially over grass, it will shorten your landing

 and will prevent you from bouncing or floating when you don't have the runway length to spare.

 It took me 5 or 6 years to figure this out. We've got a short field, so it doesn't apply to most of you guys.

 Unless ........



 I'm landing on this video with a 5 - 10 mph tailwind (at)35mph air speed - 

 only one way in and draggin brakes all the way on the grass.

  



 [url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid 63159682459782825&hl=en] http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid 63159682459782825&hl=en[/url]

OurField.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

53.68 KB

Viewed:

510 Time(s)

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Possum

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

I have a Firestar II and am a low time pilot. 70 hours in my plane since I got it six months ago.

I was flying into Casa Grande AZ with a Challenger II flown by my instructor.

Awos reported winds of 17 with gust to 23. The wind was about 40 degrees off the runway alignment.

The Challenger landed first and I could see how much his left wing was low.

I came in about 20 over stall speed in a side slip, touched down on the left wheel and started giving more rudder as I slowed, (I was playing with my E6-B one day and saw the crosswind component increase as speed slowed)

All was good. The Aeronca that came in a little later had a tough go of it but survived. 

     The key for me seemed to be wheel landings, and just fly it to the ground. If things get worse I have differential braking. I also had a 120 pound passenger in the plane with me.

     I don't think I was at my limit but the event had my full attention.

     The first time I landed like this it was bounce along on the right main a few times then start essing all over the runway and barely stay on it.

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

 	  dalewhelan wrote: 	
		  The first time I landed like this it was bounce along on the right main a few times then start essing all over the runway and barely stay on it. 	




Don't know what you're complaining about, all my landings are like that.....







LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

Thanks for the advice everyone.



Yesterday I had enough time to make 3 full stop takeoffs and landings on the asphalt. Wind was gusty at times but straight down the runway. I think it was mostly around 5 to 6 kts with an occasional 10 kt gust.



Any way I guess some times you pick up bad habits after training like approaching too hot 70 to 75 when 60 to 65 works better.



I have been doing that lately. So yesterday I made my approaches at 65 and held it there until the round out and as soon as the wheels touched down I gave the stick a quick jab forward and she stayed stuck to the pavement on the mains!! Then as the plane slowed a bit the tail wheel came down.



The way I usually land involves coming in hot 70 to 75 rounding out, floating a bit and holding the plane off for a full stall landing. The wheels usually touch (3 point) at 45mph .



 With the landings I practiced yesterday I didn't try to hold it off I  just let the plane fly onto the runway with a low sink rate. The landings were firm rather than the slight tire chirp with the full stall and the ASI on touch down was 50mph 5mph faster. All of these landing were at idle.



Ground handling seemed better doing the wheel landings vs the 3 point.



Thanks guys!



I have video footage of the takeoffs and landings. I will post them to youtube tonight.

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

I was having a lot of trouble with full stall landings and called Travis (at) Kolb.

He recommended I fly it to the ground with power.

    I set the power to maintain cruise speed with about a 200 ft/ min sink, and fly it to the ground. If I am high (usually) I employ a forward slip and leave the power setting. If I am way high (sometimes) I momentarily reduce power as well.

    To my surprise I can now do full stall landings. Aside from 190 landings in this plane, I have no idea what is different. My wheel landings are consistently smoother than wheel landings, much easier on the tires and landing gear. I practice full stall landings for short fields, but prefer wheel  landings, especially on asphalt. I use a little more power for full stall. I use more approach speed for dead stick and do a wheel landing.

    I had an off airport landing do to motor failure shortly after takeoff and drove it through some cactus, I think maybe I should practice full stall dead stick. What do you guys think?

     I also feel kinda stagnant in my training. I passed my check ride a got a sport pilot license, but I feel I need to keep learning. I have visited a local ultralight chapter but for the most part, they don't fly. most of the people I have flown with scare me, either in their lack of aircraft control, or their poor judgment. I would like to continue improving, any suggestions?

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

1. fly regularly and land often.  Long cross-country time may look  

impressive in the log book

but local ups and downs provide more real experience.

2. fly in bumpy air.  Flying in only perfect conditions will lose  

your sense of connection with the plane.

3. practice a lot of closed throttle landings in safe circumstances

my opinion of course.

BB



On 20, Jan 2009, at 11:00 AM, dalewhelan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net>



 I was having a lot of trouble with full stall landings and called  

 Travis (at) Kolb.

 He recommended I fly it to the ground with power.

     I set the power to maintain cruise speed with about a 200 ft/  

 min sink, and fly it to the ground. If I am high (usually) I employ  

 a forward slip and leave the power setting. If I am way high  

 (sometimes) I momentarily reduce power as well.

     To my surprise I can now do full stall landings. Aside from 190  

 landings in this plane, I have no idea what is different. My wheel  

 landings are consistently smoother than wheel landings, much easier  

 on the tires and landing gear. I practice full stall landings for  

 short fields, but prefer wheel  landings, especially on asphalt. I  

 use a little more power for full stall. I use more approach speed  

 for dead stick and do a wheel landing.

     I had an off airport landing do to motor failure shortly after  

 takeoff and drove it through some cactus, I think maybe I should  

 practice full stall dead stick. What do you guys think?

      I also feel kinda stagnant in my training. I passed my check  

 ride a got a sport pilot license, but I feel I need to keep  

 learning. I have visited a local ultralight chapter but for the  

 most part, they don't fly. most of the people I have flown with  

 scare me, either in their lack of aircraft control, or their poor  

 judgment. I would like to continue improving, any suggestions?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 25852#225852

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

During my training in my plane We rarely ever used any power during landing. 

I  don't like carrying power on.  In my normal approaches I chop power to idle once the field is made.



All of my landings are smooth this way. Nothing rough.



Before taking the lessons I was told the ultralights need to have some power on to land by a few people. This didn't make much sense to me since and engine out means no power.  An X kolb flyer told me the MK III was impossible to land without some power on and he also said increasing throttle during the landing would put it up on its nose. The nose part could be true if the stick was not adjusted to compensate for it.



This guys has over 400 hrs  doing banner tow in a Cub.



I think its the steep angle of descent that gives the illusion that power must be used to make a decent landing. I am pretty sure if a GA guy got in my plane and I did a power off 65 mph decent it would scare them especially the low altitude round out.

 I think keeping power on to land is a band-aid.  Jut my opinion

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

> During my training in my plane We rarely ever used any power during 

landing.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I  don't like carrying power on.  In my normal approaches I chop power to 

 idle once the field is made.



 All of my landings are smooth this way. Nothing rough.



 Before taking the lessons I was told the ultralights need to have some 

 power on to land by a few people. This didn't make much sense to me since 

 and engine out means no power.  An X kolb flyer told me the MK III was 

 impossible to land without some power on and he also said increasing 

 throttle during the landing would put it up on its nose. The nose part 

 could be true if the stick was not adjusted to compensate for it.



 This guys has over 400 hrs  doing banner tow in a Cub.



 I think its the steep angle of descent that gives the illusion that power 

 must be used to make a decent landing. I am pretty sure if a GA guy got in 

 my plane and I did a power off 65 mph decent it would scare them 

 especially the low altitude round out.

 I think keeping power on to land is a band-aid.  Jut my opinion


	




Grant:



I taught myself to fly the Ultrastar I built 25 years ago.  I had no other 

fixed wing training, although I had a good background and training flying 

Army helicopters, to include combat time in Vietnam.



My philosophy for landing was to land power off.  If I could make the field, 

power off, I was going to make it if the engine quit, which was quite common 

back then with two stroke engines.



10 to 15 mph over stall is plenty good for me.



My mkIII will land quite well without power, clean or full flaps.  It does 

good wheels and full stall landings without power.



One of my favorite maneuvers, during flight demos in the factory MKIII's at 

Lakeland and Oshkosh, was to start my approach at the threshold of the 

airstrip at pattern altitude, which was usually 300 feet AGL.  Full flaps, 

40 mph and the MKIII with passenger would kinda hoover for a few seconds. 

Then push the nose over to about 60 mph and it would fall out of the sky. 

Knudge a little aft stick to start a flare about 10 feet AGL and we would be 

on the ground.  Usually, the passenger would still be sucking air and 

holding on tight.  That is the way I landed, as a passenger, in February 

1991, when I made my first landing in a MKIII on the taxi way next to Homer 

Kolb's hanger with Dennis Souder at the controls.  That short flight was my 

checkout in the new factory MKIII.  Next flight was solo, but on the 3000 ft 

grass strip, not the short taxiway.  I have also landed in Dick Rahill's 

Cub, as a passenger, on that taxiway with Dick at the controls.  Never a 

dull moment at Homer's.  I surely do miss those good old days.



Nose overs are very possible in a standard configured Kolb.  Been there and 

done that with my FS, factory FF and MKIII.  Each incident was pilot error. 

I put the aircraft in a situation that invited a nose over and did not see 

it coming.  Pretty hard to get one up on its nose when landing and taking 

off if one stays ahead of the aircraft.



john h

mkIII - 36F at 1300 local.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

I agree with what you said,Bob, - with one exception.  You wrote that local ups and downs provide more real experience than cross countries. If you are always flying local, then part of your proficiency is due to familiarity.  You KNOW where the rotors, etc. tend to be at your airport and surrounding airports, since you've flown into them so often. You still pay attention, but it's attention tempered with a certain amount of comfort due to flying in known territory.



When you're flying cross country, you're flying over unfamiliar terrain and landing at unfamiliar airports.  You're landing on a variety of surfaces - paved, turf, gravel, dirt, and sometimes in pastures or fields. The strips have different surroundings with different obstacles. You're not familiar with the landing strip or the surroundings and have to keep a very sharp lookout since you don't know what to expect. I think that is a real learning experience.  



Arty Trost

Maxair Drifter

Sandy, Oregon

www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com



"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"  Helen Keller

"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

--- On Tue, 1/20/09, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   1. fly regularly and land often.  Long cross-country

 time may look impressive in the log book

 but local ups and downs provide more real experience.

 2. fly in bumpy air.  Flying in only perfect

 conditions will lose your sense of connection with the

 plane.

 3. practice a lot of closed throttle landings in safe

 circumstances

 my opinion of course.

 BB

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Crab vs sideslip crosswing landing

I agree that cross-country's can be more challenging....   and to add to Arty's list, even at UL speeds, the weather can change considerably from the time you took off until it's time to land at a new, unfamiliar airport.

  -- Robert

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM, TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com (thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: TheWanderingWench <thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com (thewanderingwench(at)yahoo.com)>

 I agree with what you said,Bob, - with one exception.  You wrote that local ups and downs provide more real experience than cross countries. If you are always flying local, then part of your proficiency is due to familiarity.  You KNOW where the rotors, etc. tend to be at your airport and surrounding airports, since you've flown into them so often. You still pay attention, but it's attention tempered with a certain amount of comfort due to flying in known territory.

 When you're flying cross country, you're flying over unfamiliar terrain and landing at unfamiliar airports.  You're landing on a variety of surfaces - paved, turf, gravel, dirt, and sometimes in pastures or fields. The strips have different surroundings with different obstacles. You're not familiar with the landing strip or the surroundings and have to keep a very sharp lookout since you don't know what to expect. I think that is a real learning experience.

 Arty Trost

 Maxair Drifter

 Sandy, Oregon

 www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com

 "Life's a daring adventure or nothing"  Helen Keller

 "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

 --- On Tue, 1/20/09, robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)> wrote:

 > 1. fly regularly and land often.  Long cross-country

 > time may look impressive in the log book

 > but local ups and downs provide more real experience.

 > 2. fly in bumpy air.  Flying in only perfect

 > conditions will lose your sense of connection with the

 > plane.

 > 3. practice a lot of closed throttle landings in safe

 > circumstances

 > my opinion of course.

 > BB

[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
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