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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2879
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Great report Bob! Glad it worked out for you.
Regarding your lessons learned:
1) Definitely. Most EFIS's and EIS's will have that in it
these days, so it should be easy to get warnings.
2) You MAY have been able to continue with a backup alternator,
but, for a long x/c trip, it might not be safe or practical.
But, it does bring up the idea of what exactly is a backup
alternator good for.... If you had the SD-8, it wouldn't
really buy you anything for continuing the trip...because
nobody wants to continue a long trip where they only can use
8A worth of equipment. If you had a 20A backup, you'd perhaps
be able to continue more or less unaffected, after shedding some
more minimal loads. That's not saying it's a good idea, but
it makes it more practical than an 8A alternator.
3) Absolutely! I've bought about a dozen of those Harbor
Freight cheap DMM's...it seems every time they go on sale
for $1.99 each, I buy one and give it to someone. I keep
one in my cars, my boat, the plane, the hangar, my desk
at home and work...basically handy everywhere. I even
used one on my first-flight day to find a loose alternator
connection.
4) Yeah, it's a good idea to have that documentation.
When I carry my tablet PC with me, I keep an entire
copy of my websites, and everything, which house all
of my drawings, database updates for my GPS's/EFIS,
software updates, and all that stuff. It's one of the
benefits of tablet PC's over stand-alone units...you
can program a memory card right in the field and fix
something if you need to.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Bob-tcw wrote:
[quote]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Ditto, except that the mechanics can not work on your airplane. unless your are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will say that since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools but they can not work on it. Had this happen at the premier FBO at Austin TX airport. Secondly a backup battery or a backup (vacuum pad driven) alternator is a must for IFR. And you are correct, the aircraft alternator is $350+ exchange. Lastly my tool box always weighs about 25 pounds which contains both many tools and critical spare parts, i.e. seviceable spark plugs, extra regulator, master contactor, start relay, fasteners, washers, tie wraps etc.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob-tcw
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:04 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Fw: Alternator failure
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lbgjb10
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 Posts: 67
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator failure |
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on my computer the initial report on the alternator failure is missing??? vas gibs??? larry
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Disagree. A shop may say that, indeed. However, it is simply an
excuse, unless they are a repair station with restrictions on the
station license. A&P Mechanics can work on anything they are familiar
with, without anything more than AC43-13-1B, and/or appliance manuals
especially an experimental, since there is no type certificate and
manufacturer's maintenance manual for it. A Lycoming is a Lycoming. A
Ford aircraft alternator is identical, whether installed on a Cessna
or a Glastar or an RV. Ditto Slick or Bendix magnetos.
But you already knew that as part of your license.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:06 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:
Quote: | Ditto, except that the mechanics can not work on your airplane. unless your
are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will say that
since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools but they can
not work on it. Had this happen at the premier FBO at Austin TX airport.
Secondly a backup battery or a backup (vacuum pad driven) alternator is a
must for IFR. And you are correct, the aircraft alternator is $350+
exchange. Lastly my tool box always weighs about 25 pounds which contains
both many tools and critical spare parts, i.e. seviceable spark plugs, extra
regulator, master contactor, start relay, fasteners, washers, tie wraps etc.
________________________________
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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dlm46007(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Perhaps what I should have said is that they will not risk their repair
station status to touch an experimental. Certainly any A&P can repair
whatever he wants. Management at many of these FBOs won't allow their
mechanics to "repair" aircraft for which there is (they have) no data.
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth. Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Kelly, I'm not an A&P or AI, so beart with me. I do believe that the
FAA mandate that one have the manuals pertinent to the equipment in
question also applies to experimentals. There is a huge difference in
what WE (as a holder of a repairmans certificate) can do on our
experimentals Vs. what a licensed A&P/AI can do. Far too often the lack
of a manual never goes noticed until something lousy happens. And it's
the person that signed off the maintenance that takes the hit.
Hopefully a licensed A&P/AI will comment, but I'll ask my gurus.
Linn
Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote: |
Disagree. A shop may say that, indeed. However, it is simply an
excuse, unless they are a repair station with restrictions on the
station license. A&P Mechanics can work on anything they are familiar
with, without anything more than AC43-13-1B, and/or appliance manuals
especially an experimental, since there is no type certificate and
manufacturer's maintenance manual for it. A Lycoming is a Lycoming. A
Ford aircraft alternator is identical, whether installed on a Cessna
or a Glastar or an RV. Ditto Slick or Bendix magnetos.
But you already knew that as part of your license.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:06 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:
> Ditto, except that the mechanics can not work on your airplane. unless your
> are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will say that
> since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools but they can
> not work on it. Had this happen at the premier FBO at Austin TX airport.
> Secondly a backup battery or a backup (vacuum pad driven) alternator is a
> must for IFR. And you are correct, the aircraft alternator is $350+
> exchange. Lastly my tool box always weighs about 25 pounds which contains
> both many tools and critical spare parts, i.e. seviceable spark plugs, extra
> regulator, master contactor, start relay, fasteners, washers, tie wraps etc.
> ________________________________
>
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1705 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Linn,
My comment was as a licensed A&P/IA. The need for manuals on the jobsite
is greatly overblown. Just like the need to have charts on board. There
are differing standards for Part 91 and for the commercial operations.
Since FSDOs deal far more with commercial operations, they get in their
head those requirements.
The requirement for A&Ps is familiarity with the task at hand. I do not
need to have the manual on hand to torque a spark plug in a Lycoming
engine. They are all the same for that brand, and I have that on the top
of my head. OTOH, if I am needing the rigging specs or control surface
balancing specs for a plane, I will get out the right manual and have
that infrequently used info right in front of me, step by step.
The situation at hand was the failure of a Ford aircraft type
alternator. They are so common amongst the fleet that most any A&P is
going to be familiar without the manuals. The owner might need to
provide some info on cowling removal, access to the unit, any
information on the plane's wiring system. I'd rather have the person
that built the system as a reference than some written document that I
have to decipher. But that is just me and my opinion.
linn Walters wrote:
Quote: |
Kelly, I'm not an A&P or AI, so beart with me. I do believe that the
FAA mandate that one have the manuals pertinent to the equipment in
question also applies to experimentals. There is a huge difference in
what WE (as a holder of a repairmans certificate) can do on our
experimentals Vs. what a licensed A&P/AI can do. Far too often the lack
of a manual never goes noticed until something lousy happens. And it's
the person that signed off the maintenance that takes the hit.
Hopefully a licensed A&P/AI will comment, but I'll ask my gurus.
Linn
Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
>
> Disagree. A shop may say that, indeed. However, it is simply an
> excuse, unless they are a repair station with restrictions on the
> station license. A&P Mechanics can work on anything they are familiar
> with, without anything more than AC43-13-1B, and/or appliance manuals
> especially an experimental, since there is no type certificate and
> manufacturer's maintenance manual for it. A Lycoming is a Lycoming. A
> Ford aircraft alternator is identical, whether installed on a Cessna
> or a Glastar or an RV. Ditto Slick or Bendix magnetos.
> But you already knew that as part of your license.
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:06 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Ditto, except that the mechanics can not work on your airplane.
>> unless your
>> are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will
>> say that
>> since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools but
>> they can
>> not work on it. Had this happen at the premier FBO at Austin TX
>> airport.
>> Secondly a backup battery or a backup (vacuum pad driven) alternator
>> is a
>> must for IFR. And you are correct, the aircraft alternator is $350+
>> exchange. Lastly my tool box always weighs about 25 pounds which
>> contains
>> both many tools and critical spare parts, i.e. seviceable spark
>> plugs, extra
>> regulator, master contactor, start relay, fasteners, washers, tie
>> wraps etc.
>> ________________________________
>>
>
>
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth. Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote: | The owner might need to provide some info on cowling removal, access
to the unit, any information on the plane's wiring system. I'd rather
have the person that built the system as a reference than some written
document that I have to decipher. But that is just me and my opinion.
And that's worth a whole heck of a lot!!! And I agree with your opinion
|
.... but, as I've pointed out .... when the FED comes looking at your
operation ..... and takes the position "Since FSDOs deal far more with
commercial operations, they get in their head those requirements.", will
you prevail??? I've dealt with the FAA (nothing pleasant) and find them
to press whatever route they want, legal or not ..... and get the
feeling that they won't end up holding the short stick. I think that's
what the FBOs are wary of. It's a hi/low profile thingy.
Thanks Kelly.
Linn
Quote: |
linn Walters wrote:
>
> <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>
>
> Kelly, I'm not an A&P or AI, so beart with me. I do believe that the
> FAA mandate that one have the manuals pertinent to the equipment in
> question also applies to experimentals. There is a huge difference
> in what WE (as a holder of a repairmans certificate) can do on our
> experimentals Vs. what a licensed A&P/AI can do. Far too often the
> lack of a manual never goes noticed until something lousy happens.
> And it's the person that signed off the maintenance that takes the
> hit. Hopefully a licensed A&P/AI will comment, but I'll ask my gurus.
> Linn
>
> Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Disagree. A shop may say that, indeed. However, it is simply an
>> excuse, unless they are a repair station with restrictions on the
>> station license. A&P Mechanics can work on anything they are familiar
>> with, without anything more than AC43-13-1B, and/or appliance manuals
>> especially an experimental, since there is no type certificate and
>> manufacturer's maintenance manual for it. A Lycoming is a Lycoming. A
>> Ford aircraft alternator is identical, whether installed on a Cessna
>> or a Glastar or an RV. Ditto Slick or Bendix magnetos.
>> But you already knew that as part of your license.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:06 PM, David McNeill <dlm46007(at)cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ditto, except that the mechanics can not work on your airplane.
>>> unless your
>>> are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will
>>> say that
>>> since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools but
>>> they can
>>> not work on it. Had this happen at the premier FBO at Austin TX
>>> airport.
>>> Secondly a backup battery or a backup (vacuum pad driven)
>>> alternator is a
>>> must for IFR. And you are correct, the aircraft alternator is $350+
>>> exchange. Lastly my tool box always weighs about 25 pounds which
>>> contains
>>> both many tools and critical spare parts, i.e. seviceable spark
>>> plugs, extra
>>> regulator, master contactor, start relay, fasteners, washers, tie
>>> wraps etc.
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1705 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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You are right. That is what they are wary about. However, the Fed is
supposed to be looking at did the mechanic perform a repair in an
unairworthy manner? Did he not document properly what he did? Not that
the unreasonable feds against aviation won't nitpick about things that
don't apply. Can't do too much about that.
Since OBAM aircraft are each one of a kind, the Fed should not be
looking for the same criteria as a certified aircraft.
If mechanic wants to play CYA, he can make his log entry such as to
include "consulted with aircraft manufacturer on repair methods and
performed as recommended."
Most repair stations business is commercially operated aircraft, so
their thinking is in line with the Feds.
All this discussion doesn't really matter if they offer assistance and
let you be responsible for the work and repairs. You make the log entry,
pay them for whatever service they provide, and everyone should be
happy. So I'm sure that is why some offer to go that route.
Heck, if you have your construction log/maintenance info on the web, and
they have access, that should cover it.
linn Walters wrote:
and takes the position "Since FSDOs deal far more with
Quote: | commercial operations, they get in their head those requirements.", will
you prevail??? I've dealt with the FAA (nothing pleasant) and find them
to press whatever route they want, legal or not ..... and get the
feeling that they won't end up holding the short stick. I think that's
what the FBOs are wary of. It's a hi/low profile thingy.
Thanks Kelly.
Linn
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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deej(at)deej.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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David McNeill wrote:
Quote: | Ditto, except that the mechanics *can not* work on your airplane. unless
your are carrying a manual for continued airworthiness, most shops will
say that since they do not have the manuals they will lend you the tools
but they can not work on it.
|
Hi David,
According to the EAA, *anyone* may work on a homebuilt regardless of
their credentials, or lack thereof:
<http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Non-builder%20Maintenance.html#TopOfPage>
"I am going to buy a used homebuilt, what work can I perform myself?
FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply
to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. Therefore, any work (not just
maintenance) on an experimental aircraft can be performed virtually by
anyone regardless of credentials. (This does not apply to the condition
inspection). Let common sense be your guide as to what maintenance you
conduct yourself."
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ KR-2 Builder N770DJ
http://deej.net/sportsman/ http://deej.net/kr-2/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
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dlm46007(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: Alternator failure |
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They won't work if their management says no and many times they say no;
primarily for insurance, liability and documentation reasons. Obviously its
their choice. As I said I have had an FBO at Austin tell me that I may use
their hangar and tools but they are not permitted by their management to do
work on an experiemtnal. The rewards , for them, do not begin to compare
with the perceived risks.
--
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: Alternator failure |
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Suggest sending readers digest version of your story to Avweb for
consideration as FBO of the week, and/or copy AirNav. FBOs see those
comments and appreciate them.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Bob-tcw <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com> wrote:
[quote]
---
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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