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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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 Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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Hi guys,
The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot be
modified
for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate has
been issued?
Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
Hope this is not true.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
David Downey wrote:
[quote] I agree Jay. I had plans for that plane. At the time they said there
was no way to make the weight bogey for LSA. Plans gone. Sure would
have made a terrific low and slow plane though... It would certainly
fly and fly well with even an A-65 pitched for climb. Today's crowd
just doesn't understand that planes do not have to suck fuel and go
fast...
David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
--- On *Sat, 1/24/09, jaybannist(at)cs.com /<jaybannist(at)cs.com>/* wrote:
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>
Subject: Re: RV9- Light Sport
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 8:18 PM
Van's lists, for the RV9A, with 115 HP, at gross, cruise 55%,
8.000 ft, 148 mph; stall speed 48 mph. I really don't see how an
RV9A could ever qualify as an LSA.
I also question the "E" in E-LSA. (ie. the RV12) To qualify, one
must be built EXACTLY like a production model of the same
airplane. That completely rules out experimentation. Isn't that
what the "E" stands for ?
Jay Bannister
--
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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Hi Larry,
I guess it is time we all started focusing on the new E-LSA rule. I
only remember the way it was described several years ago - that it
had to match, exactly, the S-LSA from the same manufacturer. The
notion was it was a bolt together version of the S-LSA and the
"Builder" was really an untalented assembler.
I don't have any clue about the changes that could be made to an
E-LSA after certification and who could do it.
Why do you think the RV-12 won't qualify for the 51% rule? I would
expect it to easily meet that rule since the kit should be similar to
the other planes from Van's.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 08:22 PM 1/24/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot be modified
for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate
has been issued?
Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
Hope this is not true.
|
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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The E-LSA don't have to meet the 51% rule. It is my understanding that post certification modifications must be approved by the manufacture of the E-LSA kit.
| larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: | Hi guys,
The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot be
modified
for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate has
been issued?
Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
Hope this is not true.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
|
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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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From what I understand and I might be wrong Van's didn't want builders to be able to put in any other power plants in the RV-12 and that's why it is classed the way it is.
Jeff
| Quote: | >The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
| Quote: | Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot be modified
for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate
has been issued?
Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
Hope this is not true.
|
|
A Good Credit Score is 7001028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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Van's kits usually specify the engine or small family of engines that work.
I spoke to Van himself about the choice of Rotax for the RV-12. I guess I failed to talk him into a larger engine. I believe the physical size of the 912 is considerably smaller than any competing engines. I also believe the airframe kit includes most of the FWF. That leaves you a large task if you want to use a different engine.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 08:50 PM 1/24/2009, you wrote:
[quote]From what I understand and I might be wrong Van's didn't want builders to be able to put in any other power plants in the RV-12 and that's why it is classed the way it is.
Jeff[b]
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craig(at)craigandjean.com
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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| Quote: | From what I understand and I might be wrong Van's didn't want builders to be able to put in any other power plants in the RV-12 and that's why it is classed the way it is.
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Van’s can’t stop you from buying an RV-12 kit and doing whatever you want to with it. Nor do they want to:
“In February 2008, the FAA stopped reviewing new kits for compliance with Experimental-Amateur Built category. Van’s Aircraft, Inc. is unable to predict the ultimate effect of the moratorium on the E-AB eligibility of RV-12 kits, but from the information currently available, E-AB certification will still be allowed on an individual basis. Responsibility for demonstrating compliance with the “51%” rule will rest entirely with the builder.”
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:51 PM
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport
From what I understand and I might be wrong Van's didn't want builders to be able to put in any other power plants in the RV-12 and that's why it is classed the way it is.
Jeff
| Quote: |
| Quote: | The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
>Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot be modified
|
>for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate
>has been issued?
>
>Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
>
>Hope this is not true. |
A Good Credit Score is 7001028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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An E-LSA built from a conforming kit must be assembled exactly
according to plans. Once the test time is flown off though, according
to the EAA website, an E-LSA can be modified any way you like. It
basically falls under the same rules as E-AB except that you need an
LSA-I repairman certificate to sign off the annual.
On Jan 24, 2009, at 11:22 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
| Quote: |
>
Hi guys,
The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot
be modified
for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate
has been issued?
Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
Hope this is not true.
|
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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Paul,
Vans expressed that none of his kits would meet the 51% rule given the
pre-cut, bent, welded, punched and molded
components that comprise the majority of the kit. The work of
fabrication is a much larger component than the assembly
that follows. Consensus of our EAA Chapter is that the RV12 is likely
the same. I'm helping an XL builder with his wings
right now and can fully appreciate what was intended by the rule. The
kits do not do much for the education of a
builder if he does not read up on proper use of tools, cutters,
measuring and riveting processes.
Accident statistics will get worse without more builder focus and
attention to detail.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Paul Mulwitz wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Larry,
I guess it is time we all started focusing on the new E-LSA rule. I
only remember the way it was described several years ago - that it had
to match, exactly, the S-LSA from the same manufacturer. The notion
was it was a bolt together version of the S-LSA and the "Builder" was
really an untalented assembler.
I don't have any clue about the changes that could be made to an E-LSA
after certification and who could do it.
Why do you think the RV-12 won't qualify for the 51% rule? I would
expect it to easily meet that rule since the kit should be similar to
the other planes from Van's.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 08:22 PM 1/24/2009, you wrote:
> The E in LSA suggests the aircraft is built exactly to plans for the
> Airworthiness Certificate. Does this mean that the aircraft cannot
> be modified
> for any other accessory or gage after the Airworthiness Certificate
> has been issued?
>
> Also, it appears that the RV12 may not be able to meet the 51% rule.
>
> Hope this is not true.
|
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psm(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: [Possible Spam] Re: RV9- Light Sport |
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I agree with you Larry,
I have found building a Zodiac from standard kit to be a highly
educational experience.
I'm not sure I agree about Van's kits being too well fabricated. I
have a friend who just completed an RV-9A. He built it mostly to the
furnished design. Still, he worked close to full time on it for 4 or
more years. He had to finish nearly every part and set the rivets
after line drilling and them and dimpling each rivet location. He
also had to deal with most of the same issues we Zenith builders must
to finish the plane after finishing the kit. I suppose it is true he
didn't have to do much measuring as the pre-drilled parts really do
fit together correctly. From my conversation with Van, I know he
would be very unhappy if he learned there was even a single pilot
hole drilled in the wrong place in his kit.
I am sure that scratch builders must learn a great deal more and do a
great deal more work to complete their planes. I don't have personal
experience with QBK builders, but even those have been approved by
the FAA as meeting the 51% rule.
As I recall, the latest issue with the 51% rule was not about how
well prepared the kit materials are. It was about getting too much
professional assistance building the airplane after acquiring the kit.
I recall some recent discussions with a list member who bought a
completed AMD XL rather than building one from any sort of
materials. I was surprised about his reluctance to modify the engine
cowling to get his temperatures under control. Perhaps I shouldn't
have been so surprised. This just points out the great divide
between airplane builders and airplane buyers. I'm not sure the FAA
has it just right with the 51% determination, but they certainly have
the right idea to distinguish between people who build planes and
ones who just fly them. I think their biggest concern is preventing
manufacturers from avoiding type certification by claiming their
product is a kit when it is really professionally built at the factory.
I am pretty sure the RV-12 kit is prepared in much the same style as
the other RV kits. There are significant differences since pulled
rivets are used instead of solid ones. Still I think the kit is
mostly drilled and bent parts rather than the bolt-on wings and
wheels you might expect on an E-LSA kit.
I personally have no interest in building an RV-12 or any other of
Van's offerings. I probably will build another plane when I have
completed all the testing and finishing on my XL. Perhaps I will
consider the E-LSA route after I have a firm grip on the limits that
path offers. (I think the Aeroprakt A-22 is really neat looking.) My
choice will depend more on the design features of the plane than on
the freedom to make major modifications.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 07:30 AM 1/25/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | The kits do not do much for the education of a
builder if he does not read up on proper use of tools, cutters,
measuring and riveting processes.
Accident statistics will get worse without more builder focus and
attention to detail.
|
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