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Fuel Tank Expose

 
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lowandslow1(at)hotmail.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

I'll post some pictures eventually C but thought you all would be interested in the findings/process.  Brief overview:
My tanks are from 1995 C never had fuel in them(as I am still under construction).  They don't fit in the wing as they are incorrectly twisted and was planning on a tank redo C plus several years ago I noticed the "sprayed" in sealer was cracked and flaking off the inside surfaces...so-
 
I decided to take the top off of the tank C which came off easier than I expected.  The three layers: two weaved with a glass mat sandwiched between them.  They peeled apart C each individual layer C very easily C easier than pulling off a peelply layer.  Where the top was adhered to the baffles and side seams it came apart quite easily as well.  Took probably 30 min to remove the top.  I thought I may have to use a heat gun C but separating a layer with a razor and pulling on it with a pair of duckbills pulled it right off C once I got going a gloved hand is all that was needed.  And I did not damage any of the tank that I wanted.  I assume that it came apart fairly easily being that it is vinyl-ester based C instead of epoxy.  I've tried to pull apart composite layers in test layups I've done and never been able to get them apart.  So in a weird way C its a good thing the top came off easily C for repairs anyway.
 
Interior: The white sealer was sprayed in and was mostly a light "fog" coating on the front and rear of the tank.  The sealer has not given me any resistance in being removed.  Some areas are difficult to get to with the scraper C but should have it completely clean with another hour of work.
 
After looking at numerous composite build sites and calling some very respected composite individuals C I decided to use Jeffco's 9700 product to coat the inside of the tank.  It has a very good track record C very chemically resistant and from all reports has resisted all fuels to this date.  It is used in nearly every composite aircraft fuel tanks construction as the sealer of choice.  I am writing down things as I go and will post something when I am complete C don't expect anything for a while C I have to layup a new top which shouldn't be to difficult.  I've been working on this since '95 so....  My goal is to have the tanks completed by the end of spring and the wings ready for cover this summer.  Unless I lose my job.
 
Andy
Series 5 TD

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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Andy, that is a first. Most people just put a gallon or two of MEK or Acetone in there and shake it around until the white stuff (Kreem) dissolves and then just pour it all out. I would never have thought that one could just remove the top of the tank. Good tip!
BTW, you can easily remove the remainder of the Kreem in there using MEK or Acetone. MEK seems to work a little quicker, but isn't as easy to find and somewhat more expensive. Kreem is MEK based.

Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert


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Dick Maddux



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Thanks Andy ! I look forward to the pictures as I too have the white sealent possibly flaking in my tanks (borescope). I am keeping a cutious watch on my wing tank filters. If I see small flakes or blockage,then I will have to go through the task of pulling the wings and removing the tanks.
      Dick Maddux
      Pensacola,Fl
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].
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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:20 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Dick, there have been some cases here on the list where the tanks were cleaned and resloshed without removing them from the wings. Several people got together and after removing the wings from the airplane, were able to do the job just by rotating the wings. I'm sure it's a big chore, but not nearly as much as completely removing the tanks. Hopefully someone who was involved will pop up to give the details.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert



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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

I resloshed one tank with the help of a fixture I made and a friend. It is
doable and with proper covering of the painted surfaces doesn't leave a mess
except possibly on the floor. For what it;s worth, I have a lot of
confidence in Kreem. I have done some test tube tests - in the archives.

Lowell Fitt
Cameron Park, CA
Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
Just about ready to cover fuselage and left wing. And Rudder

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

I was involved in the one-man cleaning and sloshing of my tanks which
I had already installed when I found out about the need to service
them. I rotated mine in my wings jigs, and end-for-end inside the
shop...all work done inside the shop. No flaking after nearly 3 years
of flying. Just don't be in a hurry to call the job done....as it is
with ALL matters pertaining to the building of a Kitfox.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying


On Jan 27, 2009, at 9:17 AM, fox5flyer wrote:

[quote] Dick, there have been some cases here on the list where the tanks
were cleaned and resloshed without removing them from the wings.
Several people got together and after removing the wings from the
airplane, were able to do the job just by rotating the wings. I'm
sure it's a big chore, but not nearly as much as completely
removing the tanks. Hopefully someone who was involved will pop up
to give the details.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert

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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Dick Maddux



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

I was thinking of going to plastic tanks vs the fiberglas (just thinking mind you) I am not too sure about Kreem and its reaction to alcohol which we will have here in Florida in two years.
In any event,so far so good.The tanks seem to be ok. I have some small areas at the top corners of the tanks with no Kreem coverage (as seen by borescope) but don't appear to have any flaking and the tank flows are good. I have read about pulling the wings and resloshing them that way vs pulling the tanks. I would hate to do it and then have to do it again if the sloshing compound doesn't hold up to alcohol.
        Dick Maddux
        Pensacola,Fl
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Dick C Can you get plastic tanks? My 47 Ford street rod had Kreemed tanks that gave me fits. I had no pieces in the filters that I kept checking because the pieces were too big to enter the lines and blocked the tank outlet intermitantly. I went to a plastic tank. I will do everything possible to never use that stuff again.
do not archive 

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL


From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Date: Wed C 28 Jan 2009 07:13:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Expose
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
I was thinking of going to plastic tanks vs the fiberglas (just thinking mind you) I am not too sure about Kreem and its reaction to alcohol which we will have here in Florida in two years.
 In any event Cso far so good.The tanks seem to be ok. I have some small areas at the top corners of the tanks with no Kreem coverage (as seen by borescope) but don't appear to have any flaking and the tank flows are good. I have read about pulling the wings and resloshing them that way vs pulling the tanks. I would hate to do it and then have to do it again if the sloshing compound doesn't hold up to alcohol.
                                                          Dick Maddux
                                                          Pensacola CFl

>From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between C stay up-to-date with the latest news.
[quote]

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ronics.com

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Dick Maddux



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:59 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Pat,
Some of the members listed a website for plastic Avid/Kitfox wing tanks a while back. I know nothing about them but here it is :[url=wingtanks.com]wingtanks.com[/url]. I would be interested to hear of some results using these tanks. Apparently you cut the tops out of your present wing tanks and install the plastic tanks. The fuel quantity is somewhat reduced but for me, no big deal as the fuel range on my aircraft far exceeds my bladder capacity. Besides it doesn't take too much time before I am ready to land at an airport to "airport bum" steal the aviation magazines and eat doughnuts.
        Dick Maddux
        Fox 4-1200
        Pensacola,Fl
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Dick C Thanks for the tank info. All I know is C I will never waste time trying to reclaim a gas tank C car C motorcycle or plane C again. I spent 2 years thinking I had a vapor lock problem because the Kreem pieces were too large to pass through lines to the filiters I was checking. All I had to do was sit by the road till I could start up again. I sure as hell don't want to have to find a safe place to land first.
do not archive 

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford C IL


From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Date: Thu C 29 Jan 2009 08:46:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Expose
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Pat C
 Some of the members listed a website for plastic Avid/Kitfox wing tanks a while back. I know nothing about them but here it is :wingtanks.com. I would be interested to hear of some results using these tanks. Apparently you cut the tops out of your present wing tanks and install the plastic tanks. The fuel quantity is somewhat reduced but for me C no big deal as the fuel range on my aircraft far exceeds my bladder capacity. Besides it doesn't take too much time before I am ready to land at an airport to "airport bum" steal the aviation magazines and eat doughnuts.
                                                       Dick Maddux
                                                       Fox 4-1200
                                                       Pensacola CFl

>From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between C stay up-to-date with the latest news.
[quote]

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ronics.com

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Pat-
It's a little different in the plane, or any other application if you
have the finger strainers inside the tank. These allow for more crap
to *try* to block the fuel outlet before any real blockage occurs.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying


On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:43 PM, patrick reilly wrote:

Quote:
Dick, Thanks for the tank info. All I know is, I will never waste
time trying to reclaim a gas tank, car, motorcycle or plane, again.
I spent 2 years thinking I had a vapor lock problem because the
Kreem pieces were too large to pass through lines to the filiters I
was checking. All I had to do was sit by the road till I could
start up again. I sure as hell don't want to have to find a safe
place to land first.
do not archive

Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
From: Catz631(at)aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:46:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Expose
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Pat,
Some of the members listed a website for plastic Avid/Kitfox wing
tanks a while back. I know nothing about them but here it
is :wingtanks.com. I would be interested to hear of some results
using these tanks. Apparently you cut the tops out of your present
wing tanks and install the plastic tanks. The fuel quantity is
somewhat reduced but for me, no big deal as the fuel range on my
aircraft far exceeds my bladder capacity. Besides it doesn't take
too much time before I am ready to land at an airport to "airport
bum" steal the aviation magazines and eat doughnuts.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Pensacola,Fl

>From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-
to-date with the latest news.
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution_-
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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Fox5flyer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

Actually, Kreem is pretty good stuff and does what it's intended to do. The
problem is in the application. The surface has to be perfectly clean and
dry with no residues of mold release, oils, etc. After soap and water, the
last rinse should be with clean MEK, then dilute the Kreem 50/50 with MEK
and slosh. You won't have another problem.

Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Quote:

On Jan 29, 2009, at 3:43 PM, patrick reilly wrote:

> Dick, Thanks for the tank info. All I know is, I will never waste time
> trying to reclaim a gas tank, car, motorcycle or plane, again. I spent 2
> years thinking I had a vapor lock problem because the Kreem pieces were
> too large to pass through lines to the filiters I was checking. All I
> had to do was sit by the road till I could start up again. I sure as
> hell don't want to have to find a safe place to land first.
> do not archive
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
> From: Catz631(at)aol.com
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:46:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: Fuel Tank Expose
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> Pat,
> Some of the members listed a website for plastic Avid/Kitfox wing tanks
> a while back. I know nothing about them but here it is :wingtanks.com. I
> would be interested to hear of some results using these tanks.
> Apparently you cut the tops out of your present wing tanks and install
> the plastic tanks. The fuel quantity is somewhat reduced but for me, no
> big deal as the fuel range on my aircraft far exceeds my bladder
> capacity. Besides it doesn't take too much time before I am ready to
> land at an airport to "airport bum" steal the aviation magazines and eat
> doughnuts.
> Dick Maddux
> Fox 4-1200
> Pensacola,Fl
>
> >From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-
> to-date with the latest news.
> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-
> Listronics.comww.matronics.com/contribution_-
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> contribution_-
> ============================================================





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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Fuel Tank Expose Reply with quote

When I sloshed my aluminum wing tank with Kreem I used a 2 part system
bought at a local Harley Davidson chop-shop. It came with very specific
instructions - if I remember correctly you are meant to use part A, which is
called an "acid wash", for a certain amount of time per rotation, then dump
out and save it, then rinse with water several times, then use Part A again,
rinse, then use Part B which is the Kreem coating itself, again rotating the
tank at specific times. It worked well at removing an old layer of flaking
"slosh" and sealing a front seam leak, as well as completely sealing the
"finger strainer" (oops!) I didn't know was there at the time.

I may not have remembered the sequence exactly but it seems more logical to
the product than soap-and-water and mixtures of MEK, or have I done my tank
incorrectly?

Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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