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Another flying adventure

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

After yesterdays disappointing aborted trip to Oshkosh, I needed to  

get back on the horse, so I managed to get the plane flying  

today...it got down to single  digits overnight, so the previously  

soft snow, (which hadn't allowed me to take off yesterday) had  

frozen, and I was able to fly today. To make a long story and day  

short, I flew and landed at 5 different grass strips, 3 of which  

didn't have any previous tracks on them. Then when heading for home,  

I got the crap scared out of me when for no good reason at all, the  

plane just kinda shuddered, and slowed WAY down, and fell off to the  

left. I looked down and didn't see the left ski. I looked at the  

right ski, and it was there, and just about the time I had a landing  

site in sight...one of the previous strips that I had landed earlier,  

Honey Acres (7N4)...I heard and felt the left ski snap back to its  

normal position. I continued flying to get home, but much slower,  

thinking that whatever caused the ski to flop downwards might have  

been caused by flying too fast into the wind. Landed without incident  

at home.



Maybe I got a sudden downdraft or a "chunk" of turbulence, I don't  

have a clue, but I gotta tell ya, this incident really got my  

attention. All I could think of at first was the oft-repeated anthem  

around here: "To date, no Kitfox has ever experienced an in-flight  

breakup."  I was thinkin' well, here it comes, numero uno!



My CFI and mentor is always preaching dual cables on skis, front and  

back, and this might have been the saving grace today. Something  

forced that left ski downward, and it must have met the limits of the  

front restraint cables, which are set at about a 25 degree downward  

limit of ski travel. When it got to this limit, the  "air brakes"  

really came on, slowed the plane, and then the shock cord snapped it  

back to the limit of the rear restraint cables. Another life used up  

of the original allowable inventory of 9. I don't know where I stand  

right now, but I gotta be getting close.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 24, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks for the offer to shoot your installation, Dick, but I've got  

 mine installed now and it's working fine. I think I'll do like you  

 did, and shorten that HUGE long cable, too. My sender (transducer)  

 is at about a 45 degree angle within my console, and works great. I  

 see 5.8 gals/hour during climbout, and down to anywhere  from  

 3.7-4.4 in cruise mode depending on rpm, wind direction, etc.

 If you like adventures, I'm getting ready to post todays' rather  

 scary...briefly....hop, one of several hops I made in the snow today.



 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and flying

 do not archive



 On Jan 24, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



> Lynn,

>    In reply to the F210 installation I just wanted to pass on that  

> I installed my sender about 2 inches above the gascolater  

> (splicing into the fuel line). I shortened the electrical cord to  

> about 3 ft (from about 15) and was able to connect to the gauge in  

> my panel. It worked out very nicely. I covered both the sender and  

> fuel line in aircraft fire sleeve and I now have a very stable  

> installation. This is also a vertical installation as the  

> instructions specify. If you want a picture of the installation  

> let me know and I will remove the cowling and send you one.

>   I too like having a fuel flow. Mine is indicating a fuel  

> consumption of 3.3 gal at 5000 rpm. I thought that was rather low  

> on my 912UL but prior computations at a few hundred rpm's less was  

> revealing 2.8 gph and that was over a 10 hour period. ?????

>   I love your flying adventures by the way.

>                                                                     

> Dick Maddux

>                                                                     F 

> ox 4-1200

>                                                                       

> Pensacola,Fl

>

> From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up- 

> to-date with the latest news. _-www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

> ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

25 Degrees down sounds pretty steep to me.  What are the other guys using?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

AC 43.13 shows -20 to -35 degree angles for main ski incidence, and a  

couple of years ago, when this was a current topic, somebody...a few,  

actually...said that 25 was plenty, so I set mine at that figure.  

This is the first time I've ever had this happen, and it got my  

attention. What caused it I don't know, but I'll be asking advice  

from other ski users locally. 43.13 also specs the down force  

required to slacken the check cable, and for this size ski it is  

20-40 pounds of force. Maybe I need to set mine a bit higher because  

of my 15" wide fronts, and narrower...6-1/2" wide rears. Because they  

are dissimilar in area, maybe the air got hold of the front area and  

blew it down, and the smaller rear area could not balance it out. I  

never had this happen on the other skis, and I have exactly the same  

cable and shock cord setup....1/8" stainless steel cables and 3/8"  

shock cords. The shock cords have 2" of pre-stretch when they are  

installed at the maximum positive incidence angle of +5 degrees.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 25 Degrees down sounds pretty steep to me.  What are the other guys  

 using?



 Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

Lynn C Is 25 degrees down the normal limit for skis. It seems like alot. 



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL





[quote] From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 Subject: Another flying adventure

 Date: Sat C 24 Jan 2009 16:13:29 -0500

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 

 After yesterdays disappointing aborted trip to Oshkosh C I needed to 

 get back on the horse C so I managed to get the plane flying 

 today...it got down to single digits overnight C so the previously 

 soft snow C (which hadn't allowed me to take off yesterday) had 

 frozen C and I was able to fly today. To make a long story and day 

 short C I flew and landed at 5 different grass strips C 3 of which 

 didn't have any previous tracks on them. Then when heading for home C 

 I got the crap scared out of me when for no good reason at all C the 

 plane just kinda shuddered C and slowed WAY down C and fell off to the 

 left. I looked down and didn't see the left ski. I looked at the 

 right ski C and it was there C and just about the time I had a landing 

 site in sight...one of the previous strips that I had landed earlier C 

 Honey Acres (7N4)...I heard and felt the left ski snap back to its 

 normal position. I continued flying to get home C but much slower C 

 thinking that whatever caused the ski to flop downwards might have 

 been caused by flying too fast into the wind. Landed without incident 

 at home.

 

 Maybe I got a sudden downdraft or a "chunk" of turbulence C I don't 

 have a clue C but I gotta tell ya C this incident really got my 

 attention. All I could think of at first was the oft-repeated anthem 

 around here: "To date C no Kitfox has ever experienced an in-flight 

 breakup." I was thinkin' well C here it comes C numero uno!

 

 My CFI and mentor is always preaching dual cables on skis C front and 

 back C and this might have been the saving grace today. Something 

 forced that left ski downward C and it must have met the limits of the 

 front restraint cables C which are set at about a 25 degree downward 

 limit of ski travel. When it got to this limit C the "air brakes" 

 really came on C slowed the plane C and then the shock cord snapped it 

 back to the limit of the rear restraint cables. Another life used up 

 of the original allowable inventory of 9. I don't know where I stand 

 right now C but I gotta be getting close.

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 600.2 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and flying

 

 

 

 

 On Jan 24 C 2009 C at 3:34 PM C Lynn Matteson wrote:

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 >

 > Thanks for the offer to shoot your installation C Dick C but I've got 

 > mine installed now and it's working fine. I think I'll do like you 

 > did C and shorten that HUGE long cable C too. My sender (transducer) 

 > is at about a 45 degree angle within my console C and works great. I 

 > see 5.8 gals/hour during climbout C and down to anywhere from 

 > 3.7-4.4 in cruise mode depending on rpm C wind direction C etc.

 > If you like adventures C I'm getting ready to post todays' rather 

 > scary...briefly....hop C one of several hops I made in the snow today.

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 600.2 hrs

 > Sensenich 62x46

 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > New skis done and flying

 > do not archive

 >

 >

 >

 > On Jan 24 C 2009 C at 9:29 AM C Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:

 >

 >> Lynn C

 >> In reply to the F210 installation I just wanted to pass on that 

 >> I installed my sender about 2 inches above the gascolater 

 >> (splicing into the fuel line). I shortened the electrical cord to 

 >> about 3 ft (from about 15) and was able to connect to the gauge in 

 >> my panel. It worked out very nicely. I covered both the sender and 

 >> fuel line in aircraft fire sleeve and I now have a very stable 

 >> installation. This is also a vertical installation as the 

 >> instructions specify. If you want a picture of the installation 

 >> let me know and I will remove the cowling and send you one.

 >> I too like having a fuel flow. Mine is indicating a fuel 

 >> consumption of 3.3 gal at 5000 rpm. I thought that was rather low 

 >> on my 912UL but prior computations at a few hundred rpm's less was 

 >> revealing 2.8 gph and that was over a 10 hour period. ?????

 >> I love your flying adventures by the way.

 >> 

 >> Dick Maddux

 >> F 

 >> ox 4-1200

 >> 

 >> Pensacola CFl

 >>

 >> From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between C stay up- 

 >> to-date with the latest news. _-www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 >> ===================================

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >> _================

 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

Lynn 

when I had my skis I sent the front restraint cable so that it was starting to tighten when the plain was in the standard 3 point position. 

there was no way I could get a negative angle on  my skis in flight! 

Regards 

Gary

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to [url=Arial]UNICEF Australia[/url]. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". 

Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

25/01/2009 12:16 PM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: Another flying adventure 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 AC 43.13 shows -20 to -35 degree angles for main ski incidence, and a  

 couple of years ago, when this was a current topic, somebody...a few,  

 actually...said that 25 was plenty, so I set mine at that figure.  

 This is the first time I've ever had this happen, and it got my  

 attention. What caused it I don't know, but I'll be asking advice  

 from other ski users locally. 43.13 also specs the down force  

 required to slacken the check cable, and for this size ski it is  

 20-40 pounds of force. Maybe I need to set mine a bit higher because  

 of my 15" wide fronts, and narrower...6-1/2" wide rears. Because they  

 are dissimilar in area, maybe the air got hold of the front area and  

 blew it down, and the smaller rear area could not balance it out. I  

 never had this happen on the other skis, and I have exactly the same  

 cable and shock cord setup....1/8" stainless steel cables and 3/8"  

 shock cords. The shock cords have 2" of pre-stretch when they are  

 installed at the maximum positive incidence angle of +5 degrees.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and flying

 On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 >

 > 25 Degrees down sounds pretty steep to me.  What are the other guys  

 > using?

 >

 > Noel

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:51 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Well, the only printed matter that I have to reference is 43.13, and  

it allows  " -20 to -35 degree ski incidence angle." Others here on  

this list thought minus 35 was a lot and said they set theirs at  

minus 25, so I did too. It worked fine for the other skis.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Jan 24, 2009, at 10:00 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, Is 25 degrees down the normal limit for skis. It seems like  

 alot.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL





 > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net

 > Subject: Another flying adventure

 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:13:29 -0500

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 >

 > 

 >

 > After yesterdays disappointing aborted trip to Oshkosh, I needed to

 > get back on the horse, so I managed to get the plane flying

 > today...it got down to single digits overnight, so the previously

 > soft snow, (which hadn't allowed me to take off yesterday) had

 > frozen, and I was able to fly today. To make a long story and day

 > short, I flew and landed at 5 different grass strips, 3 of which

 > didn't have any previous tracks on them. Then when heading for home,

 > I got the crap scared out of me when for no good reason at all, the

 > plane just kinda shuddered, and slowed WAY down, and fell off to the

 > left. I looked down and didn't see the left ski. I looked at the

 > right ski, and it was there, and just about the time I had a landing

 > site in sight...one of the previous strips that I had landed  

 earlier,

 > Honey Acres (7N4)...I heard and felt the left ski snap back to its

 > normal position. I continued flying to get home, but much slower,

 > thinking that whatever caused the ski to flop downwards might have

 > been caused by flying too fast into the wind. Landed without  

 incident

 > at home.

 >

 > Maybe I got a sudden downdraft or a "chunk" of turbulence, I don't

 > have a clue, but I gotta tell ya, this incident really got my

 > attention. All I could think of at first was the oft-repeated anthem

 > around here: "To date, no Kitfox has ever experienced an in-flight

 > breakup." I was thinkin' well, here it comes, numero uno!

 >

 > My CFI and mentor is always preaching dual cables on skis, front and

 > back, and this might have been the saving grace today. Something

 > forced that left ski downward, and it must have met the limits of  

 the

 > front restraint cables, which are set at about a 25 degree downward

 > limit of ski travel. When it got to this limit, the "air brakes"

 > really came on, slowed the plane, and then the shock cord snapped it

 > back to the limit of the rear restraint cables. Another life used up

 > of the original allowable inventory of 9. I don't know where I stand

 > right now, but I gotta be getting close.

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

 > Sensenich 62x46

 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > New skis done and flying

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > On Jan 24, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 >

 > > 

 <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 > >

 > > Thanks for the offer to shoot your installation, Dick, but I've  

 got

 > > mine installed now and it's working fine. I think I'll do like you

 > > did, and shorten that HUGE long cable, too. My sender (transducer)

 > > is at about a 45 degree angle within my console, and works  

 great. I

 > > see 5.8 gals/hour during climbout, and down to anywhere from

 > > 3.7-4.4 in cruise mode depending on rpm, wind direction, etc.

 > > If you like adventures, I'm getting ready to post todays' rather

 > > scary...briefly....hop, one of several hops I made in the snow  

 today.

 > >

 > > Lynn Matteson

 > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

 > > Sensenich 62x46

 > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > > New skis done and flying

 > > do not archive

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > > On Jan 24, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:

 > >

 > >> Lynn,

 > >> In reply to the F210 installation I just wanted to pass on that

 > >> I installed my sender about 2 inches above the gascolater

 > >> (splicing into the fuel line). I shortened the electrical cord to

 > >> about 3 ft (from about 15) and was able to connect to the  

 gauge in

 > >> my panel. It worked out very nicely. I covered both the sender  

 and

 > >> fuel line in aircraft fire sleeve and I now have a very stable

 > >> installation. This is also a vertical installation as the

 > >> instructions specify. If you want a picture of the installation

 > >> let me know and I will remove the cowling and send you one.

 > >> I too like having a fuel flow. Mine is indicating a fuel

 > >> consumption of 3.3 gal at 5000 rpm. I thought that was rather low

 > >> on my 912UL but prior computations at a few hundred rpm's less  

 was

 > >> revealing 2.8 gph and that was over a 10 hour period. ?????

 > >> I love your flying adventures by the way.

 > >>

 > >> Dick Maddux

 > >> F

 > >> ox 4-1200

 > >>

 > >> Pensacola,Fl

 > >>

 > >> From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between,  

 stay up-

 > >> to-date with the latest news. _-www.matronics.com/contribution _-

 > >> ===================================

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >> _================

 >

 >

 >

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Tight at sitting on the ground with tailwheel down? That seems like  

it would not allow for going over terrain dips, etc. The shock cords  

should hold the positive of 0 degrees to 5 degrees. I'm gonna have to  

think about your suggestion over coffee this morning, Gary, but if  

43.13 allows up to negative 35, I gotta wonder why. Maybe some  

northern resident who lives on skis could answer.

One solution is to always carry a big stick....and don't speak softly  

to those   %#$(at)*&_+   skis when/if they do it again!

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:51 AM, gary.algate(at)sandvik.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Lynn

 when I had my skis I sent the front restraint cable so that it was  

 starting to tighten when the plain was in the standard 3 point  

 position.

 there was no way I could get a negative angle on  my skis in flight!

 Regards

 Gary

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the  

 addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of  

 this message by persons or entities other than the intended  

 recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,  

 kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the  

 message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for  

 any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may  

 arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.

 “This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we  

 have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe  

 and happy Christmas".

 Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

 25/01/2009 12:16 PM

 Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 cc

 Subject

 Re: Another flying adventure

 AC 43.13 shows -20 to -35 degree angles for main ski incidence, and a

 couple of years ago, when this was a current topic, somebody...a few,

 actually...said that 25 was plenty, so I set mine at that figure.

 This is the first time I've ever had this happen, and it got my

 attention. What caused it I don't know, but I'll be asking advice

 from other ski users locally. 43.13 also specs the down force

 required to slacken the check cable, and for this size ski it is

 20-40 pounds of force. Maybe I need to set mine a bit higher because

 of my 15" wide fronts, and narrower...6-1/2" wide rears. Because they

 are dissimilar in area, maybe the air got hold of the front area and

 blew it down, and the smaller rear area could not balance it out. I

 never had this happen on the other skis, and I have exactly the same

 cable and shock cord setup....1/8" stainless steel cables and 3/8"

 shock cords. The shock cords have 2" of pre-stretch when they are

 installed at the maximum positive incidence angle of +5 degrees.

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

 Sensenich 62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and flying

 On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:

 > 

 <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 >

 > 25 Degrees down sounds pretty steep to me.  What are the other guys

 > using?

 >

 > Noel

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Another flying adventure

 	  Lynn Matteson wrote: 	
		  Tight at sitting on the ground with tailwheel down? That seems like  

it would not allow for going over terrain dips, etc. The shock cords  

should hold the positive of 0 degrees to 5 degrees. I'm gonna have to  

think about your suggestion over coffee this morning, Gary, but if  

43.13 allows up to negative 35, I gotta wonder why. Maybe some  

northern resident who lives on skis could answer.

One solution is to always carry a big stick....and don't speak softly  

to those   %#$(at)*&_+   skis when/if they do it again!



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying



 	




Lynn,



I set mine at -23 per the Avid instructions.  The front bungee is pretty tight at a normal 3 point attitude.  It still allows the skis to rotate with the tundra or loading it onto the trailer.



I would pre-load the bungees more.  Are you using mill spec bungee or hardware store variety?  Cold temps does bad things to hardware store cheap bungee.  They stretch and don't come back till it warms up.



If it happens again, just pop the nose of the plane up then push it over a bit, they will pop back up into the proper attitude.



You bout made me spit coffee all over the new laptop with the bold part LOL.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Lynn sounds like you need to either install stronger bungies or double them 

up.  I don't think this is a cable problem.

Deke



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

I was just wondering...  To be honest I haven't checked AC43...  I forgot

about your skis being wider on the front.   That sure could make a

difference to the amount of llift needed on the buhgees.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Nope, definitely not a cable problem...they don't come into play  

until the bungies stretch. That is, until the bungie stretches enough  

to allow the cable to reach their limits. And all the cables and  

bungies are already doubled, as in totally redundant  

systems....separate tabs, brackets, tangs, mounting holes, etc.



I've got 3/8" Aircraft Spruce brand new shock cord, so I guess I need  

to shorten them just a wee bit. I'll put a tension gauge on them and  

see what they are right now. I first ordered 1/2" shock cord  

(forgetting what I had ordered two years ago, and not being able to  

really tell what size is what by looking and measuring) and that  

stuff is WAY too strong for the application....I think! I sent it  

back and ordered the 3/8", then found some 3/8" left over from the  

previous skis...but did not use it, fearing weakness over the two  

years sitting on the shelf. Not knowing how close the tolerances are  

for shock cord, or how stringent Spruce is about checking, we are at  

their mercy..."let the buyer beware."



One point I should make about Aircraft Spruce shock cord....when I  

first started on the skis I made two years ago, I had no idea of what  

size I should use, so I ordered 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2".  The 1/4"  

was stronger than the 5/16"!  I felt like the 3/8"  was what I should  

use, based on the 43.13 table that shows 1/2" to be used on 1500-3000  

"Ski Limit Load Rating"...(whatever that means). I assumed that my  

skis would have lesser load rating than any table that the FAA  

published before the LSA planes came along (or if they even cared  

about the lighter, smaller planes), so I went with the 3/8" cords,  

and they worked for two years. Now with a different ski "footprint",  

the air might be getting a better bite on the nose of the ski, and  

that may be what pulled the nose of the ski down into the dreaded  

"ski tuck", not to be confused with its cousin, Friar Tuck.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:15 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



[quote] 

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 Lynn sounds like you need to either install stronger bungies or  

 double them up.  I don't think this is a cable problem.

 Deke



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

I'm using Aircraft Spruce, newly purchased for this project, 3/8"  

shock cord and new fasteners. I'm gonna shorten them a tad, even  

though it is tough for me to slacken them at 3-point position, which  

I do when I think of it for overnight or longer hangaring...suggested  

by another FAA publication on skiplane flying.

I was thinking long the same lines of saving it....do a power off  

stall, and wait for it to return. Then head s-l-o-w-l-y for home and  

new skivvies, and a beer or six.

Ya gotta have a spit shield on when readin' my sh--....er, stuff,  

Lenni...now and then I get a good one off. : )

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

On Jan 25, 2009, at 9:52 AM, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Lynn Matteson wrote:

> Tight at sitting on the ground with tailwheel down? That seems like

> it would not allow for going over terrain dips, etc. The shock cords

> should hold the positive of 0 degrees to 5 degrees. I'm gonna have to

> think about your suggestion over coffee this morning, Gary, but if

> 43.13 allows up to negative 35, I gotta wonder why. Maybe some

> northern resident who lives on skis could answer.

> One solution is to always carry a big stick....and don't speak softly

> to those   %#$(at)*&_+   skis when/if they do it again!

>

> Lynn Matteson

> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

> Sensenich 62x46

> Electroair direct-fire ignition system

> New skis done and flying

 Lynn,

 I set mine at -23 per the Avid instructions.  The front bungee is  

 pretty tight at a normal 3 point attitude.  It still allows the  

 skis to rotate with the tundra or loading it onto the trailer.

 I would pre-load the bungees more.  Are you using mill spec bungee  

 or hardware store variety?  Cold temps does bad things to hardware  

 store cheap bungee.  They stretch and don't come back till it warms  

 up.

 If it happens again, just pop the nose of the plane up then push it  

 over a bit, they will pop back up into the proper attitude.

 You bout made me spit coffee all over the new laptop with the bold  

 part LOL.

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis  

 takes over.

 hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 26685#226685

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Lynn:



What page in AC43 did you find the spec for the skis?



I've been looking and found nothing on installation.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

The ski info is all in AC 43.13-2A, which seems to be an addition to  

43.13-1B combined with change 1.  The actual page numbers for the ski  

installation are pages 33-41. This is according to my copy which is  

dated 9/8/98. The skis stuff shows "Rev 1977"  If you have the actual  

book, it's way in the back...if you're going online to view it, I  

have no idea except to look for  "-2A". As usual, FAA thinking went  

into this, and I can't make sense out of their numbering system.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 25, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn:



 What page in AC43 did you find the spec for the skis?



 I've been looking and found nothing on installation.



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

The URL for AC 43.13-1B is: 

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular

.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument



The URL for AC 43.13-2B is:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular

.nsf/0/11E144125D63FE548625740A00731B4A?OpenDocument



These are the current AC's with changes.  AC 43.13-1B is downloadable by

chapter (LARGE AC), and AC 43.13-2B is a single file for the entire AC. 



John Hart



KF IV, NSI Subaru



Wilburton, OK



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Thanks lynn:



I just looked it up and yes sir I'm surprised how far the points of the skis

can go down.



Now I'm trying to think of a way to lift a ski and be able to press down on

the tip to see how much weight it requires to slack the check cable.  AC 43

says 20-40lb for our weight planes.

Thanks



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

I haven't had to ride over moguls yet, but I'm sure there are folks  

who have and I'll bet that's where the "down travel" comes into play.



That's the problem that I've had on both sets of skis that I've  

built....how to get the plane high enough off the ground so that I  

can press down on the tip and record a pressure number. During  

rigging of the check (rear) cables, I raised the tail of the plane to  

zero degrees...straight and level "flight"...then I raised the tip of  

the ski to less than 5 degrees positive, and made the check cables  

such a length that they would be tight at this attitude. I then  

measured from the fuselage mount point of the upper end of the shock  

cord to the lower mounting point, subtracted 2" (a figure I found in  

yet another article), and made my shock cords this length,  

calculating in the length of the terminal/fasteners. You will note  

that the rigging article says "Because of the various angles used in  

attaching.....shock cord tension cannot be specified."



What I'll do next is to jack up the plane, place a main wheel onto a  

block of wood, such that the cord will pull the check cable tight,  

then measure the pressure required to push down on the tip of the  

ski. I'll use this figure as the "not enough pressure unless you want  

another exciting ride" pressure, and shorten up the cord to set this  

to a higher pressure requirement...such as shorten the cord by at  

least 1" and see how that changes the pressure reading. And of  

course, the further down you push, the more the tension will  

increase, so you don't want them too tight at first.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Thanks lynn:



 I just looked it up and yes sir I'm surprised how far the points of  

 the skis

 can go down.



 Now I'm trying to think of a way to lift a ski and be able to press  

 down on

 the tip to see how much weight it requires to slack the check  

 cable.  AC 43

 says 20-40lb for our weight planes.

 Thanks



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

There may be a way of doing it mathematically.  The cord as you know is

designed to stretch 1:1.6.  you know what the length of the extended chord

will be. ( the distance from the end of the crust cutter to the top

attachment point) Using a little trig you can calculate the weight you will

need to stretch the cord (Slightly over 30 - 40 lb) the specific length.

Make one loop in the chord and simply lift the weight off the floor using a

single pulley  suspended the distance of the stretched installation plus the

thickness of your weights off the floor.  Mark the chord with a soap and

make your second loop.  All you would have to do then is make two chords the

same.  Don't be surprised if there is a bit of pre load on the cords

especially when the tail is on the ground.



I think a big part of the installation would be the angle "B" on the front

(AC43) If that angle gets too small then the chances of going over centre

get greater and at best the forces during a tuck are increased as that angle

decreases.  At full extension of the check cable the force required to lift

the ski is the greatest when it is attached at the root of the landing gear

as in AC43.  I've seen lots of 180s that had the bungees attached further

forward.  Now I think I see why.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: Another flying adventure

In my case there is enough preload to make it difficult to attach the  

cords....way more than the suggested (by the other article) 2" of  

preload, because as you mentioned, the tail is on the ground. Your  

weight method should work, but I'm going to use a spring scale to get  

the weight needed, by marking the cord at "x" and "y"  (a guessed-at  

distance apart) then seeing what length this distance becomes when  

stretched to the 20-40 lbs suggested for a 1500-3000 lb rating ski.  

Probably before I do this, I would check the existing tension at the  

stretched length of the check cable. This would be the starting  

point, and the point at where the ski would be in the flying  

attitude. This would be the weakest tension on the cord, and it would  

only get stronger from there. I'll get a pretty good idea of how much  

to shorten the cords by using this method, as I can use the spring  

tension scale to stretch the cord beyond the mounting point, and  

thereby observe how much needs to be cut off and the terminal  

reattached.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 26, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 There may be a way of doing it mathematically.  The cord as you  

 know is

 designed to stretch 1:1.6.  you know what the length of the  

 extended chord

 will be. ( the distance from the end of the crust cutter to the top

 attachment point) Using a little trig you can calculate the weight  

 you will

 need to stretch the cord (Slightly over 30 - 40 lb) the specific  

 length.

 Make one loop in the chord and simply lift the weight off the floor  

 using a

 single pulley  suspended the distance of the stretched installation  

 plus the

 thickness of your weights off the floor.  Mark the chord with a  

 soap and

 make your second loop.  All you would have to do then is make two  

 chords the

 same.  Don't be surprised if there is a bit of pre load on the cords

 especially when the tail is on the ground.



 I think a big part of the installation would be the angle "B" on  

 the front

 (AC43) If that angle gets too small then the chances of going over  

 centre

 get greater and at best the forces during a tuck are increased as  

 that angle

 decreases.  At full extension of the check cable the force required  

 to lift

 the ski is the greatest when it is attached at the root of the  

 landing gear

 as in AC43.  I've seen lots of 180s that had the bungees attached  

 further

 forward.  Now I think I see why.



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: Another flying adventure

Lynn: 

I agree the first step would be to check the existing tension.  I was just

thinking about a way of doing it without lifting the plane and playing with

blocks...  



Noel 



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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