Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

VG's
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:59 am Post subject: VG's

I know this subject has been covered a thousand times but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

  While my BRS chute was off for repack (2 months) I had to have something to do so I decided to install the VG's I have had on hand for about a year. I have heard they really don't do much of anything on the Kitfox wing and tail but why not I am retired! Now they really worked on my Pacer so I was hoping for a little difference. Unfortunately, I was unable to check the numbers prior to installing them as my plane was apart for the annual condition inspection.

  I finally received the chute, scratched the tar out of my arms reinstalling it, and went flying. I stalled the airplane and the speed appears to be about the same. I also did some slow flight and tight turns. The only thing I did notice was the airplane seems to be more stable at slow speeds. It is hard to put words on the control feeling but it is there. Is it worth doing? Probably not. Do I like it? Yes,. My normal approach speed is now down to 55 vs 60 that I was using before. It doesn't woller around anymore when you fly it slow if that makes sense. Of course one thing to possibly realize here is I could have lost some of the control feel of an impending stall that you might have without VG's

   In any case,I like them and besides they are stuck on, so I better!

 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: VG's

Being "stuck on" was the reason that I have decided...so far...not to  

install any on my plane, Dick. Unless the VG's come with explicit  

instructions for where and how many to install based on good info  

from *several* similar planes, I'd have to pass on this experiment  

myself. That, plus the problem that comes with keeping the plane  

washed...and I hate doing that....and it's a given for me not to try  

them.



One other thing I just thought of....if they call for a specific  

position and I've got a rib or false rib in the way, what do I do?  

What did you do?

I talked to one supplier of VG's, and he said they haven't been real  

impressed with their own VG's when used on a Kitfox...don't recall  

what model, engine, etc. he was referring to. That pretty much sold me.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 25, 2009, at 8:56 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I know this subject has been covered a thousand times but I thought  

 I would throw in my 2 cents.

  While my BRS chute was off for repack (2 months) I had to have  

 something to do so I decided to install the VG's I have had on hand  

 for about a year. I have heard they really don't do much of  

 anything on the Kitfox wing and tail but why not I am retired! Now  

 they really worked on my Pacer so I was hoping for a little  

 difference. Unfortunately, I was unable to check the numbers prior  

 to installing them as my plane was apart for the annual condition  

 inspection.

  I finally received the chute, scratched the tar out of my arms  

 reinstalling it, and went flying. I stalled the airplane and the  

 speed appears to be about the same. I also did some slow flight and  

 tight turns. The only thing I did notice was the airplane seems to  

 be more stable at slow speeds. It is hard to put words on the  

 control feeling but it is there. Is it worth doing? Probably not.  

 Do I like it? Yes,. My normal approach speed is now down to 55 vs  

 60 that I was using before. It doesn't woller around anymore when  

 you fly it slow if that makes sense. Of course one thing to  

 possibly realize here is I could have lost some of the control feel  

 of an impending stall that you might have without VG's

   In any case,I like them and besides they are stuck on, so I better!



 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up- 

 to-date with the latest news. _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: Re: VG's

I used the land shorter VGs and can really tell a difference in the air.  The AOA I get before stall is RIDICULOUS.  You cant see over the nose yet she is still flying.  The bad part is, to really notice they are on there, you have to get the nose up, and I cant do it on ski's.  I could get the plane in the air ALOT quicker if I had more AOA on the wing.  I have the tall gear etc, but would like to get that nose even higher.  I may take a leaf out of the spring and take my chances that it will give me more AOA and not break.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: VG's

Go to a spring shop and have them anneal the spring, give it a new bend and

re-temper it.  Spring shops can work on all the leaves at the same time.



Don't try it at home.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:15 am Post subject: VG's

Lynn,

   I put two VG's in each "valley" on the wings. This was suggested in the instructions. That's a lot of VG's on the wing. They are made of clear plastic and are not too obtrusive. When I wash the top of the wing I use a brush on a pole and am careful around them. On the horizontal stab they are about 2" in front of the hinge line (gap is also sealed with tape)

   This plane sure loves to wheel land and it is difficult to get a decent 3 pointer unless it is absolute calm. I get a lot of complements on my wheel landing which in any other aircraft usually takes a bit of finesse to pull off, On this one you just put the tires on the runway and release the pressure. Eats up runway though.

                                                        Dick Maddux

                                                        Fox 4-1200

                                                        Pensacola,Fl

 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].

  [quote][b]

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: VG's

If it is difficult to get the tail down first or at the same time as main  wheel, isn't the CG to far forward?

 Can you stall the aircraft in air with and without flap? (not just stall  the elevator)

  

 Jan

 www.jcpropellerdesign.com

  

 [quote]   ---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: VG's

In the valleys between the ribs, or the valleys between the false  

ribs? I assume the false ribs being that you say a "lot of VG's".  

That's gotta be 8 VG's between the ribs...that IS a lot. On top of,  

or underneath the hort. stab? I've heard of underneath.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Jan 26, 2009, at 8:13 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,

   I put two VG's in each "valley" on the wings. This was suggested  

 in the instructions. That's a lot of VG's on the wing. They are  

 made of clear plastic and are not too obtrusive. When I wash the  

 top of the wing I use a brush on a pole and am careful around them.  

 On the horizontal stab they are about 2" in front of the hinge line  

 (gap is also sealed with tape)

   This plane sure loves to wheel land and it is difficult to get a  

 decent 3 pointer unless it is absolute calm. I get a lot of  

 complements on my wheel landing which in any other aircraft usually  

 takes a bit of finesse to pull off, On this one you just put the  

 tires on the runway and release the pressure. Eats up runway though.

                                                        Dick Maddux

                                                        Fox 4-1200

                                                        Pensacola,Fl



 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up- 

 to-date with the latest news. _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

According to www.landshorter.com, the VG's should be spaced about 1 % of the wingspan apart, so that is about 100 VG's total on the wings.  The spacing between VG's is not critical, like Dick says, put a pair in the valley between each rib, your result may be more than 100, thats fine...  It does not matter if it is a false rib, or real rib, near the leading edge where you put them, a rib is a rib.   



Placement of VG's is CRITICAL !!!  There are exact directions given by www.landshorter.com when you get them, which is 10 % of the chord of the wing back from the leading edge, and 15 degrees nose in in each rib valley if I remember correctly.  They only take a couple hours to put on, you can use 3 M  double sided automobile trim tape if you want to just put them on temporary to try them out if you like.  



The results of VG's should be INCREDIBLE !  I don't know why Dick did not have a reduction in stall with his VG's.  Only thing I can say again is that it is CRITICAL to get them on exactly as per the instructions that came with them.  Also each type of wing reacts differently to VG's, but I have never ever heard anyone say they did not improve the airplane.  My friend just put VG's on his Kitfox, and raves about the improvement in slow speed handling and reduced speeds.  On my Kolb VG's took the stall down from 40 to 30 MPH, a 10 MPH reduction in stall speed !!!   The handling was the best part, it used to feel " Mushy " below 60 MPH, now I can fly the pattern at 40 if I like, and control is there and still very responsive.  Check out this video of the performance of my Kolb with VG's installed, it will amaze you:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjI7-kBptrA



Make sure you click " Watch In High Quality " at the bottom right of the video so that the quality will be good enough to read the airspeed indications.   This is the best single thing I have ever done to increase the performance of my Airplane, and at 100 dollars, its a bargain.  My Kitfox series 7 will be getting VG's when its done.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: VG's

A blast from the past.  Many of you will remember Kurt Schrader who last 

posted in 2007.  This is a post regarding his experience testing VGs.



Hi John,



I think VG's are a winner and that is a good price.

Only way you can beat that is to make your own.  But

these come with a guarantee!



I bought a different brand and tested them on my Fox

during my 40 hrs of testing.  I tried 5 or 6 different

patterns and did some 50 or so stalls.  I did get a

significant improvement in handling and safety as far

as I am concerned.  I could still completely control

the plane with full aft stick and bobbing in and out

of stalls.  I could even shove in considerable rudder

and not spin out.



Unfortunately I couldn't achieve any siginificant

reduction in stall speeds and need to continue testing

in the future.  As I remember, reporting my testing on

the list resulted in Landshorter jumping in to help.

I consider that great customer concern and would

support buying from them for that reason too.  They

supported me even though I had a different brand.



I will certainly be going back to testing VG's

whenever I get more time.  Even without a reduction is

stall speed, I like the slow flying qualities.  This

makes me feel much more confident about low speed

landings and that alone would improve safety and short

field work.



Anticipating your question, my cruise speed was

similar with VG's and without.  Some patterns slowed

me down a few mph and some didn't make a change in

cruise performance.



The major shortcoming of VG's to me is cleaning your

plane.  Ha ha.  Ya gotta work around those things.

Otherwise they are all a plus.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: VG's

Lynn,

  Each set of two VG's is about 6 inches apart or so about 5 1/2 inches back from the leading edge on the top of the wing and the one's on the stab are on the bottom about 2 inches in front of the hinge.

   I flew again yesterday and I do like them. As I said before, it does make the aircraft more stable at lower speeds. I can definitely feel it.

   One of these days I will go up and do a stall series to see if there are any differences in stall speed which at one test, didn't seem to be. I need to reset the warning airspeed on my TrueTrak anyway.

                                                     Dick Maddux

                                                     Fox 4-1200

                                                     Pensacola,Fl

 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].

  [quote][b]

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: Re: VG's

When I tested my VGs before/after stall speed I used my ASI instead of the GPS.  Because of the increased AOA when stalling with VG's, my Pitot tube was pointed so high that it looked like I had almost dropped to 0 mph before I stalled. (DUH).  I was "Alerted", by one of the members to use the GPS speed (upwind and downwind) and it came out not much better than listed in the specs. About 35-40 mph.  Since I did not use the GPS for the before readings, I had no comparison.  The KF-7/ss showed a marked increase in stability when doing short field landings and TO's.  I never regretted I installed them.



rich

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: VG's

Any change in cruise speed?

Deke



---

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

There was no discernible change in speed. I have 64 VG's on each wing and 26 on the bottom of each stabilizer.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: VG's

That's good to hear, Rich.  I've been considering for a long time installing 

the VGs, but wasn't sure about there being a corresponding drag.   All I'm 

looking for is better low speed stability as my strip is relatively short 

and sometimes it gets a bit challenging on a hot summer day, mainly landing. 

My S5 has always performed as it should, but anything that improves it 

without adding any significant weight has to be a good thing.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

[quote="Dick Maddux"]Lynn,

  Each set of two VG's is about 6 inches apart or so about 5 1/2 inches back from the leading edge on the top of the wing and the one's on the stab are on the bottom about 2 inches in front of the hinge.

   I flew again yesterday and I do like them. As I said before, it does make the aircraft more stable at lower speeds. I can definitely feel it.

   One of these days I will go up and do a stall series to see if there are any differences in stall speed which at one test, didn't seem to be. I need to reset the warning airspeed on my TrueTrak anyway.

            ï¿½            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½  Dick Maddux

            ï¿½            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½  Fox 4-1200

            ï¿½            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½  Pensacola,Fl

    	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	


I used the pattern supplied by Land Shorter.  The VG's are 3" apart at 5.1" back from the leading edge.  They should be ~10% of the wingspan apart, and 1% of the cord, including flaperons.



They (land shorter) say the VGs should be put 1" ahead of the hinge line on the underside of the stabilizer.



Take this for what it is worth... the opinion of a snake oil salesman lol....

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: Re: VG's

[quote="akflyer"] 	  Dick Maddux wrote: 	
		  



I used the pattern supplied by Land Shorter.  The VG's are 3" apart at 5.1" back from the leading edge.  They should be ~10% of the wingspan apart, and 1% of the cord, including flaperons.



	




I think Dick got the spacing of his VG's way to far apart, which would result in far less than the optimum number of VG's.  This would explain Dicks OK, but not good results from adding VG's to his airplane.



Leonard got the spacing about right according to the instructions from www.landshorter.com    If you don't put enough VG's on, you wont get the full benefit, which is why I always say, exact placement of VG's is CRITICAL to getting the full benefit of VG"s.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:26 am Post subject: VG's

I have 72 VG,s on each wing per the instructions I received with the kit. (actually two kits) I believe that is enough. The thing looks like a porcupine!

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Pensacola,Fl

 From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].

  [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: Re: VG's

[quote="JetPilot"] 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		   	  Dick Maddux wrote: 	
		  



I used the pattern supplied by Land Shorter.  The VG's are 3" apart at 5.1" back from the leading edge.  They should be ~10% of the wingspan apart, and 1% of the cord, including flaperons.



	




I think Dick got the spacing of his VG's way to far apart, which would result in far less than the optimum number of VG's.  This would explain Dicks OK, but not good results from adding VG's to his airplane.



Leonard got the spacing about right according to the instructions from www.landshorter.com    If you don't put enough VG's on, you wont get the full benefit, which is why I always say, exact placement of VG's is 

CRITICAL to getting the full benefit of VG"s.



Mike 	




Mike, I am a little slow here in Alaska, who knows maybe the cold really does effect the brain, however, your first post says spacing is not critical, then you later post and say it is.  What are the chances of getting you to consult with yourself and see if the two of you can come up with the same answer.  Get back to us so we know which one to listen to.



I got the spacing on mine, not about right, but just right, using the templates supplied.



sincerely



Snake Man < I think I am gonna put that on the cowling... Kinda catchy ya know

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  



Mike, I am a little slow here in Alaska, who knows maybe the cold really does effect the brain, however, your first post says spacing is not critical, then you later post and say it is.  What are the chances of getting you to consult with yourself and see if the two of you can come up with the same answer.  Get back to us so we know which one to listen to.



	




My second post says PLACEMENT is critical, NOT spacing.  In the first post I explained pretty well how the total number of VG's is important, and how they should be placed between the ribs, rather than trying for an exact spacing to equal exactly 100 VG.  Seems you did not read what I had to say very well.



On second thought, I think you understood perfectly what I was saying.  You just still seem a little bitter over the 26 foot wing kitfox thread, its obvious that you are overly anxious to try to discredit my posts in any way possible, even if you have to misrepresent what I posted to do it.  I for one am over whatever disagreement we may have had in the last thread.  Try not to be so bitter and get over it.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

 	  JetPilot wrote: 	
		   	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  



Mike, I am a little slow here in Alaska, who knows maybe the cold really does effect the brain, however, your first post says spacing is not critical, then you later post and say it is.  What are the chances of getting you to consult with yourself and see if the two of you can come up with the same answer.  Get back to us so we know which one to listen to.



	




My second post says PLACEMENT is critical, NOT spacing.  In the first post I explained pretty well how the total number of VG's is important, and how they should be placed between the ribs, rather than trying for an exact spacing to equal exactly 100 VG.  Seems you did not read what I had to say very well.



On second thought, I think you understood perfectly what I was saying.  You just still seem a little bitter over the 26 foot wing kitfox thread, its obvious that you are overly anxious to try to discredit my posts in any way possible, even if you have to misrepresent what I posted to do it.  I for one am over whatever disagreement we may have had in the last thread.  Try not to be so bitter and get over it.



Mike 	




dont flatter yourself, I am not bitter... far from it, I just have a warped sense of humor, thats all..



Off to go fly the short wing death trap.



snake man.... out........

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum