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Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
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jbonewitz



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Grapevine, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Today I spent about an hour fashioning a make-shift gap seal for my elevator. I decided to first make a temporary seal out of duct tape - I mean speed tape Smile to test its effectiveness. What I ended up with looked so good (even in silver) that I wish it weren't temporary.

Installation was real easy. I attached about a half inch of the tape to the trailing edge of the stabilizer and folded it forward, laying it out on top of the stab, sticky side up. I then attached another piece of tape on top of the first, face down, forming a double thick layer. I then folded the tape back over the top of the elevator and pushed it through the hinge gap, attaching it to the bottom leading edge of the elevator, making sure the elevator was full up so it stretched the tape taught. I made up three strips for each half of the stab so I could stay clear of hinges and hardware.

It looked good, but would it stay on in flight? I envisioned taking off and having the tower announce to the world that I had some sort of sliver streamer ("looks like duct tape") trailing behind my plane - That kind of embarrassment, like coming out of the men's room with a streamer of toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

After over an hour airborne all was well. But how did it handle? Well, one thing I learned is that even with as much experience as I have in this aircraft, detecting a small nuance of change is difficult (at least for me). In hindsight, I probably should have flown right before I made the modification. Today, the air was cold and the wind was light and variable - quite a change from what we normally experience in North Texas. It's difficult to compare this flight to the myriad of others I've made in drastically different conditions. I can't say it made a big difference, but I can say it sure didn't hurt. As I spend more time with it and get some 3-pointers-on-grass behind me, I should know more. The main point I'd like to pass on is that when you make a mod like this, fly the airplane right before you install it. You'll be glad you did.

Question. What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the elements. Any other suggestions?

John Bonewitz
Kitfox 5
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:01 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

John,

Great to hear from you again and welcome home. I'm enjoying your adventure with the gap seals.
You asked about replacing the duct tape.  Well, if you did like the duct tape, as you suggest, why not go to the aviation aisle at home depot and get white duct tape (there are other colors available.) I do know that as good as the 'high speed tape' is, after about a year in the sun it would be best to replace it. (I think that holds true for most tapes.) There is one tape, made by 3M, that I used for the stripes on my aircraft, that is available in auto parts stores that is somewhat resistant to the effects of the sun. If your interested, I can get the name of it for you tomorrow when I get to my hangar.  One thing to be careful about, the vinyls tend to stretch, but I don't know if it's significant enough to be a factor or not.
Good luck on the the adventure and please continue to keep us posted.

Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL



On Jan 29, 2009, at 9:54 PM, John Bonewitz wrote:
Quote:
Today I spent about an hour fashioning a make-shift gap seal for my elevator. I decided to first make a temporary seal out of duct tape - I mean speed tape Smile to test its effectiveness. What I ended up with looked so good (even in silver) that I wish it weren't temporary.

Installation was real easy. I attached about a half inch of the tape to the trailing edge of the stabilizer and folded it forward, laying it out on top of the stab, sticky side up. I then attached another piece of tape on top of the first, face down, forming a double thick layer. I then folded the tape back over the top of the elevator and pushed it through the hinge gap, attaching it to the bottom leading edge of the elevator, making sure the elevator was full up so it stretched the tape taught. I made up three strips for each half of the stab so I could stay clear of hinges and hardware.

It looked good, but would it stay on in flight? I envisioned taking off and having the tower announce to the world that I had some sort of sliver streamer ("looks like duct tape") trailing behind my plane - That kind of embarrassment, like coming out of the men's room with a streamer of toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

After over an hour airborne all was well. But how did it handle? Well, one thing I learned is that even with as much experience as I have in this aircraft, detecting a small nuance of change is difficult (at least for me). In hindsight, I probably should have flown right before I made the modification. Today, the air was cold and the wind was light and variable - quite a change from what we normally experience in North Texas. It's difficult to compare this flight to the myriad of others I've made in drastically different conditions. I can't say it made a big difference, but I can say it sure didn't hurt. As I spend more time with it and get some 3-pointers-on-grass behind me, I should know more. The main point I'd like to pass on is that when you make a mod like this, fly the airplane right before you install it. You'll be glad you did.

Question. What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the elements. Any other suggestions?

John Bonewitz
Kitfox 5
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jbonewitz



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Grapevine, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Thank you Rick,

The only thing I worry about with the duct tape is how I've seen the silver separate from the adhesive backing and leave that crusty adhesive welded to the surface. But then perhaps I'm using cheap duct tape. Heck, I'd leave it on if I didn't think it would do that. The 3M tape sounds good. Does it come wide enough?

John Bonewitz
Series 5 Taildragger

On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Weiss Richard <MDKitfox(at)aol.com (MDKitfox(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] John,

Great to hear from you again and welcome home. I'm enjoying your adventure with the gap seals.
You asked about replacing the duct tape. Well, if you did like the duct tape, as you suggest, why not go to the aviation aisle at home depot and get white duct tape (there are other colors available.) I do know that as good as the 'high speed tape' is, after about a year in the sun it would be best to replace it. (I think that holds true for most tapes.) There is one tape, made by 3M, that I used for the stripes on my aircraft, that is available in auto parts stores that is somewhat resistant to the effects of the sun. If your interested, I can get the name of it for you tomorrow when I get to my hangar. One thing to be careful about, the vinyls tend to stretch, but I don't know if it's significant enough to be a factor or not.


Good luck on the the adventure and please continue to keep us posted.

Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:26 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Great post, John. This gap seal business has been around since early times on the Kitfox List and it's good that every so often it pops back up. Be careful of that duct tape. If you leave it on there too long it dries out and gets very difficult to remove, leaving residue that adheres like glue. I don't know if it is still available, but many of us used what is (or was) called Ski Saver tape. It was about 4 inches wide, clear, and very heavy duty. Its purpose was to provide a layer of protection on downhill and cross country skis. It was applied using the same method you described. Mine has been on since May of 2000 and still looks great and is pliable. Then again, my airplane spends it's idle time in a hangar so I don't know how well it would hold up to outside storage. I don't know if Ski Saver is still available, but some have used with good results what is called Leading Edge tape which is very similar and durable. Also it's clear and nearly invisible once installed. I think Aircraft Spruce sells it, as well as other vendors.
Although the benefits are subtle and not always noticeable, they're definitely there and worth the effort.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert

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Dick Maddux



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:06 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

John,
I used clear leading edge tape (from Spruce) for my gap seal tape. It is relatively thick but the adhesive is not all that great. My first ones started to peel off in this Fl heat so I took the stuff off. Well, I didn't like that much either. I could tell the difference in my elevator authority so I made some more gap seal and stuck it back on. This time only a tiny bit was coming up on the leading edge of the tape and I was able to stick it back down with Polytac.
Spruce sent me a flyer advertising new 3M tapes but they are expensive. I have two rolls of expensive tape already and I certainly don't want to experiment with any more.
At one time one of the members was talking about some type of ski tape that he was using and was working well. I tried to find that on the net but no joy.
I too would like to find the perfect tape that works and looks nice. I don't really like having the stuff back there as it looks like a Band-Aid but it sure makes a difference in the elevator authority on landing. This is the only tail dragger airplane I have ever owned (it's number 14) that takes constant work to achieve a nice 3 point landing and is the only one where wheel landings are so easy.
Maybe some other guys have got an idea of which tape to use.
        Dick Maddux
        Fox 4-1200
        Rotax 912UL
        Pensacola,Fl
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the [url=http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023 ]latest news[/url].
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Could you send some photos of your installation. I would like to try it.
Travis
Kitfox IV


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:14 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

John,
If I was going to do this I would choose 3M #8674. ACS is offering free samples now. It is the same stuff used by auto detail shops for clear bras. They should have it for less cost than ACS.
Duct tape is a real poor product. The adhesive will give up after a short time in the sun and rain. Then it will leave a residue that is very hard to remove. It is intended for very temporary use.
Of course the favorite tape per the list archives is ski tape . Used by sli shops to protect the top of snow skis.
Paul
===========================


At 06:54 PM 1/29/2009, you wrote:


[quote]Question. What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the elements. Any other suggestions?

John Bonewitz
Kitfox 5

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Does anybody have pictures of the gap seal installation


From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:07 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report


Great post, John. This gap seal business has been around since early times on the Kitfox List and it's good that every so often it pops back up. Be careful of that duct tape. If you leave it on there too long it dries out and gets very difficult to remove, leaving residue that adheres like glue. I don't know if it is still available, but many of us used what is (or was) called Ski Saver tape. It was about 4 inches wide, clear, and very heavy duty. Its purpose was to provide a layer of protection on downhill and cross country skis. It was applied using the same method you described. Mine has been on since May of 2000 and still looks great and is pliable. Then again, my airplane spends it's idle time in a hangar so I don't know how well it would hold up to outside storage. I don't know if Ski Saver is still available, but some have used with good results what is called Leading Edge tape which is very similar and durable. Also it's clear and nearly invisible once installed. I think Aircraft Spruce sells it, as well as other vendors.

Although the benefits are subtle and not always noticeable, they're definitely there and worth the effort.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:48 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Good post, Paul. If anyone out there finds a source for Ski tape aka Ski Saver tape, please let us on the list know about it. I gave up looking for more of it. Today's snow skis have a very tough gel coating on them and the product may have died for lack of sales.
Deke
do not archive

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

John,

When I had my camera mounted on the lift strut, I used the 3M vinyl tape
available at most big box and little box hardware stores. It was replaced
periodically as I serviced the unit, but it was on in some places for
several years. I never had an incident of peeling and when I had to remove
it, the only residue was a line at the edge where the adhesive must have
squeezed out and collected a bit of dust. This came off with a bit of elbow
grease.

Lowell
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

I used adhesive clear shelf liner from the aviation department at Walmart. The area was disquised as kitdhen wares. the material was cut 1" strips, overlapped sticky surfaces facing about 1/2". The assembled strip was then attached as described. In 12 years it has never been replaced.

John Kerr
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larry huntley



Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

I found that "Ski Saver" tape worked well and was good for 2-3 yrs. It is used to cover the tops of Xcountry skis. I don't think it is used any more,but - - - Larry
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

On Fri, January 30, 2009 7:28 am, kirk hull wrote:
Quote:
Does anybody have pictures of the gap seal installation?

I too would be interested in seeing photos. I'm interested in details of shape,
overlap and what happens to the slack when you run neutral or down elevator.

Does the slack start to peel a tiny bit on either the stabilizer or the elevator with
dirt and debris sticking to the small exposed bit of adhesive?

Which way is better to put them on - leading edge on top or bottom of the stabilizer?
I assume this is determined by which elevator position you want when the gap seal is
tight and is determined by position.

Pictures would really help me see what's being done too.

--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell


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rjdaugh



Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

John,
A tape that I really like is sold for plastic covers or repairs on greenhouses. It stays flexible, the sun doesn’t affect it at all as far as I can see and it is easy to take off. I used it for gap seal and for covering the hole in the top of the wind screen where the front wing pivot pin comes out.

Randy
Series 5/7 912S Warpdrive taper tip



From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Bonewitz
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:54 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report


Today I spent about an hour fashioning a make-shift gap seal for my elevator. I decided to first make a temporary seal out of duct tape - I mean speed tape Smile to test its effectiveness. What I ended up with looked so good (even in silver) that I wish it weren't temporary.

Installation was real easy. I attached about a half inch of the tape to the trailing edge of the stabilizer and folded it forward, laying it out on top of the stab, sticky side up. I then attached another piece of tape on top of the first, face down, forming a double thick layer. I then folded the tape back over the top of the elevator and pushed it through the hinge gap, attaching it to the bottom leading edge of the elevator, making sure the elevator was full up so it stretched the tape taught. I made up three strips for each half of the stab so I could stay clear of hinges and hardware.

It looked good, but would it stay on in flight? I envisioned taking off and having the tower announce to the world that I had some sort of sliver streamer ("looks like duct tape") trailing behind my plane - That kind of embarrassment, like coming out of the men's room with a streamer of toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

After over an hour airborne all was well. But how did it handle? Well, one thing I learned is that even with as much experience as I have in this aircraft, detecting a small nuance of change is difficult (at least for me). In hindsight, I probably should have flown right before I made the modification. Today, the air was cold and the wind was light and variable - quite a change from what we normally experience in North Texas. It's difficult to compare this flight to the myriad of others I've made in drastically different conditions. I can't say it made a big difference, but I can say it sure didn't hurt. As I spend more time with it and get some 3-pointers-on-grass behind me, I should know more. The main point I'd like to pass on is that when you make a mod like this, fly the airplane right before you install it. You'll be glad you did.

Question. What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the elements. Any other suggestions?

John Bonewitz
Kitfox 5
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JetPilot



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look good ! Much better than tape.

Mike


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Guy Buchanan



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:21 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

At 06:54 PM 1/29/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to
purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of
to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though
not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the
elements. Any other suggestions?

I use clear heavy duty packing tape. You could also look on
www.sailrite.com for colored sail repair tape. I found the gap seal
made a significant difference, but in an insignificant configuration.
When I 3-point full flaps I can't get the tailwheel on the ground
first without the gap seal. With- it's easy.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Twelve years ago I installed gap seals using adhesive shelf liner from Walmart, following the same proceedure described of overlapping edges. I have had no lifting of the edges, deterioration or cracking.

John Kerr
Classic IV,912, 800 hours

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:01 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

If you really want to drive yourself nuts over this gap sealing
issue, try the "X" method instead of the "Z" method. We used the "X"
method on our model planes.
The "Z" method has been explained....from under (or over) the
trailing portion of the hort. stab, to over (or under) the leading
portion of the elevator, forming a "Z" when view from the side. The
"X" method is just alternating the placement of lengths of 2" wide
tape, over and under, then under and over, etc., until the gap is
sealed. In the "X" method, you make strips of tape that go, say, 2"
wide and from front to back, instead of the "Z" method where you run
the tape from side of elevator to hinge, then hinge to hinge, and so on.
The jury is still out on whether this is a good method or not...how
'bout some thoughts?

As an aside, when this method is used in model planes, no hinge is
needed, as the plastic covering material itself is used for the "gap
seals" and in using the "X" method, the elevator operates freely
without the use of hinges...not recommended for "live-in" airplanes.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 600.2 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying


On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:

Quote:

<paul(at)eucleides.com>

On Fri, January 30, 2009 7:28 am, kirk hull wrote:
> Does anybody have pictures of the gap seal installation?

I too would be interested in seeing photos. I'm interested in
details of shape,
overlap and what happens to the slack when you run neutral or down
elevator.

Does the slack start to peel a tiny bit on either the stabilizer or
the elevator with
dirt and debris sticking to the small exposed bit of adhesive?

Which way is better to put them on - leading edge on top or bottom
of the stabilizer?
I assume this is determined by which elevator position you want
when the gap seal is
tight and is determined by position.

Pictures would really help me see what's being done too.

--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell




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jbonewitz



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 17
Location: Grapevine, Texas, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Permanent, yes, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to do. For starters I'd need some fabric. Haven't seen any of that laying around for about nine years. I would also have to paint it. No, I think tape will do the trick. I just need something more durable than duct tape.

Thanks
John

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:18 PM, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>

Why not just use a piece of PolyFiber attached with Polytack to seal the gap ??? It would be permanent, easy to do, and look good ! Much better than tape.

Mike

--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report Reply with quote

Hey John,

I used "Storm-King" weather proof tape from local hardware. Comes clear in 2" width, applied by overlapping 2 pieces (sticky side up against sticky side down) 1" and installed in an "S" configuration. It's made to be used outdoors so it lasts and lasts. 3 years in, no sign of cracking or drying out.

Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/ clutch

--- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Bonewitz <bonewitz(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
From: John Bonewitz <bonewitz(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Elevator Gap Seal Test Report
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 9:54 PM

Today I spent about an hour fashioning a make-shift gap seal for my elevator. I decided to first make a temporary seal out of duct tape - I mean speed tape Smile to test its effectiveness. What I ended up with looked so good (even in silver) that I wish it weren't temporary.

Installation was real easy. I attached about a half inch of the tape to the trailing edge of the stabilizer and folded it forward, laying it out on top of the stab, sticky side up. I then attached another piece of tape on top of the first, face down, forming a double thick layer. I then folded the tape back over the top of the elevator and pushed it through the hinge gap, attaching it to the bottom leading edge of the elevator, making sure the elevator was full up so it stretched the tape taught. I made up three strips for each half of the stab so I could stay clear of hinges and hardware.

It looked good, but would it stay on in flight? I envisioned taking off and having the tower announce to the world that I had some sort of sliver streamer ("looks like duct tape") trailing behind my plane - That kind of embarrassment, like coming out of the men's room with a streamer of toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

After over an hour airborne all was well. But how did it handle? Well, one thing I learned is that even with as much experience as I have in this aircraft, detecting a small nuance of change is difficult (at least for me). In hindsight, I probably should have flown right before I made the modification. Today, the air was cold and the wind was light and variable - quite a change from what we normally experience in North Texas. It's difficult to compare this flight to the myriad of others I've made in drastically different conditions. I can't say it made a big difference, but I can say it sure didn't hurt. As I spend more time with it and get some 3-pointers-on-grass behind me, I should know more. The main point I'd like to pass on is that when you make a mod like this, fly the airplane right before you install it. You'll be glad you did.

Question. What should I replace the duct tape with? One thought was to purchase some vinyl sign material (the stuff they cut letters out of to put on banners or vehicles) pre-cut to the width I need. Though not as thick as duct tape, it is strong and should hold up to the elements. Any other suggestions?

John Bonewitz
Kitfox 5
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