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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
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 Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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I hope this comes across with a smiley face, but, the original post was
intended to find out if folks are having fuel tank trouble with mogas with a
touch of ethanol. Apparently there are a lot of feelings regarding 100LL
and engines - pro and con. Something like gap seals and short wings. This
guy has a $3000 teardown at Lockwood who are eating part of the cost,
incidently, and who suggest that it is a lead related issue so comments on
fuel / engine compatability are not too helpful unless you feel like taking
on Lockwood. Like many folks, he has used 100LL exlusively due to the fuel
tank / ethanol compatability issue. It would be helpful to him to get some
input regarding mogas and the early 2000 un- Kreemed fuel tanks. He wants
to switch, but is looking for a little encouragement.
Thanks
Lowell
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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Lowell:
My advice to your friend would be to keep an eye on the fuel ( eth ).. That
means using a gascolator. As much as I dislike the idea of burning ethanol,
especially in a plane, it seems to be the lesser of two evils at this point
in time. The first sign of any goop, or yellow in the fuel, crème or change
the tanks. The first sign of cloudiness in the fuel and drain it and replace
it with fresh fuel. One other thing I'd advise him not to store his plane
for days on end or even overnight with ethanol fuel in the tanks. It only
takes ten minutes or so to defuel a plane and put leftover fuel either in
the car or into collapsible fuel bladders where it won't condensate. Also on
chilly nights cover the tank breathers.
There is a guy in the Avid group who used the ethanol fuel for years without
any problems in what he refers to as La La land but he premixed his gas for
the 582. Now he flies a Jab and I think he puts a little oil in with the
gas to help protect the tanks from the ethanol. That seems to work to
protect the tanks.
I'd use 100LL, with a scavenger to help the exhaust valves, but only in a
pinch. Make that a tight pinch.
I'm interested in what Lockwood finds on the gears etc.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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sbennett3(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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The state I live in will not put ethanol in 93 octane. I was also told that if there is ethanol in any gas that it has to be disclosed at the pump. Just what I was told, not gospel. SB North Carolina
In a message dated 02/04/09 13:19:23 Eastern Standard Time, noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca writes:
[quote] .aolmailheader {font-size:8pt; color:black; font-family:Arial} a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>
Lowell:
My advice to your friend would be to keep an eye on the fuel ( eth ).. That
means using a gascolator. As much as I dislike the idea of burning ethanol,
especially in a plane, it seems to be the lesser of two evils at this point
in time. The first sign of any goop, or yellow in the fuel, crème or change
the tanks. The first sign of cloudiness in the fuel and drain it and replace
it with fresh fuel. One other thing I'd advise him not to store his plane
for days on end or even overnight with ethanol fuel in the tanks. It only
takes ten minutes or so to defuel a plane and put leftover fuel either in
the car or into collapsible fuel bladders where it won't condensate. Also on
chilly nights cover the tank breathers.
There is a guy in the Avid group who used the ethanol fuel for years without
any problems in what he refers to as La La land but he premixed his gas for
the 582. Now he flies a Jab and I think he puts a little oil in with the
gas to help protect the tanks from the ethanol. That seems to work to
protect the tanks.
I'd use 100LL, with a scavenger to help the exhaust valves, but only in a
pinch. Make that a tight pinch.
I'm interested in what Lockwood finds on the gears etc.
Noel
--
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gilbey69(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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not so on the ethanol in NC steve,i was using BP gas in wilmington nc to fuel up my rv6,as it used to be free from it, when i was using it to fill up my kitfox speedster when i had it,formerly in fayetteville nc,lived in wilmington for the past year, so was using it here for the 6,i started to keep a check on it here for the last few months,went to fill up one day a couple of months ago and lo and behold,on checking before filling up, i had 10 per cent ethanel in it,just glad i checked that batch,no where on the tanks is it listed as having same,a neighbor and i started checking the stations here and talking to some dealers, at this point only one dealer in this town has gas without it in it, and he advertises it,i have yet to find another station here that sells it, nor a station to show it as having ethanal on there pumps,another pilot in the community here that i live in states that he was told its not manadtory by the federal gov. to do so,nor the states, the only way to find out for sure is to check the gas as you buy it,the gas is not shipped with it in,its put in it here before its delievered to the pumps,as specified by the dealer,where ever he gets it from,
frank goggio
wilmington nc
rv6a
former kitfox owner
[quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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There is one other answer to the ethanol attacking the tanks. I have no idea about the cost but the tanks are rotary moulded from ethanol proof plastic.
The idea is you can take a portion of the skins off the top of your wings, remove the tops of your existing tanks and drop these tanks in. Not counting the recovering it should take less than a couple of hours to refit your existing tanks. There is a loss of volume and no doubt a pound or so weight penalty but it is a way of protecting from having part of your tanks found in your carb(s) without having to completely rebuild your wing(s)
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gilbey69
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:03 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Mogas revisited ( Back on track)
not so on the ethanol in NC steve,i was using BP gas in wilmington nc to fuel up my rv6,as it used to be free from it, when i was using it to fill up my kitfox speedster when i had it,formerly in fayetteville nc,lived in wilmington for the past year, so was using it here for the 6,i started to keep a check on it here for the last few months,went to fill up one day a couple of months ago and lo and behold,on checking before filling up, i had 10 per cent ethanel in it,just glad i checked that batch,no where on the tanks is it listed as having same,a neighbor and i started checking the stations here and talking to some dealers, at this point only one dealer in this town has gas without it in it, and he advertises it,i have yet to find another station here that sells it, nor a station to show it as having ethanal on there pumps,another pilot in the community here that i live in states that he was told its not manadtory by the federal gov. to do so,nor the states, the only way to find out for sure is to check the gas as you buy it,the gas is not shipped with it in,its put in it here before its delievered to the pumps,as specified by the dealer,where ever he gets it from,
frank goggio
wilmington nc
rv6a
former kitfox owner
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0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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Oops! I forgot the link to the tanks
http://www.wingtanks.com
This, to me, seems to take care of the biggest problem with ethanol fuel. Now the only thing left is a way to keep the fuel from cooling too much in flight, there by eliminating the possibility of a phase separation.
Any ideas? Temperature gauges in the fuel? Small 1/16” ID tubes passing through the tanks that some of the coolant either before or after the rad could be channelled through. I’m not talking about boiling the gas... just keeping it at say 65F.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gilbey69
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:03 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Mogas revisited ( Back on track)
not so on the ethanol in NC steve,i was using BP gas in wilmington nc to fuel up my rv6,as it used to be free from it, when i was using it to fill up my kitfox speedster when i had it,formerly in fayetteville nc,lived in wilmington for the past year, so was using it here for the 6,i started to keep a check on it here for the last few months,went to fill up one day a couple of months ago and lo and behold,on checking before filling up, i had 10 per cent ethanel in it,just glad i checked that batch,no where on the tanks is it listed as having same,a neighbor and i started checking the stations here and talking to some dealers, at this point only one dealer in this town has gas without it in it, and he advertises it,i have yet to find another station here that sells it, nor a station to show it as having ethanal on there pumps,another pilot in the community here that i live in states that he was told its not manadtory by the federal gov. to do so,nor the states, the only way to find out for sure is to check the gas as you buy it,the gas is not shipped with it in,its put in it here before its delievered to the pumps,as specified by the dealer,where ever he gets it from,
frank goggio
wilmington nc
rv6a
former kitfox owner
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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"Should be able to do in an afternoon"? Must live above the Arctic
Circle where the afternoons are 6 months long, I'm thinking. Looks
like a doable fix for a bad tank, though.
At what temperature does this "phase separation" occur?
Man, I don't want to go through all this just to avoid using
100LL....and I won't...as long as I can possibly help it. Damn the
Government and their stinkin' ethanol!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 5, 2009, at 11:50 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
| Quote: | Oops! I forgot the link to the tanks
http://www.wingtanks.com
This, to me, seems to take care of the biggest problem with ethanol
fuel. Now the only thing left is a way to keep the fuel from
cooling too much in flight, there by eliminating the possibility of
a phase separation.
Any ideas? Temperature gauges in the fuel? Small 1/16” ID tubes
passing through the tanks that some of the coolant either before or
after the rad could be channelled through. I’m not talking about
boiling the gas... just keeping it at say 65F.
Noel
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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So you don't have to tear up a wing covering why not just pull the wing and slosh the tanks with Kreem Weiss. It is easy, it sticks to anything plastics or metals, it is used worldwide in all kinds of fuel tanks. Flight Design uses it in all their planes. It is used in the aircraft industry, automotive and the motorcycle industry. It is impervious to all fuels, oils and fluids. It is very easy to use and it will make your tank dang near bullet proof for any leaks and help a little on the insulation factor. It does not chip or flake.
Good stuff!
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Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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It works for me...for the last 3 years, anyway, but no ethanol has
ever touched my lips.....er, my tanks, I mean. Seriously, I think the
whole thing with Kreem is to do a GOOD job of getting the old stuff
completely washed out, and the new stuff thoroughly impregnated into
the CLEAN inner surface of the tank.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
New skis done and flying
On Feb 5, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
| Quote: |
So you don't have to tear up a wing covering why not just pull the
wing and slosh the tanks with Kreem Weiss. It is easy, it sticks to
anything plastics or metals, it is used worldwide in all kinds of
fuel tanks. Flight Design uses it in all their planes. It is used
in the aircraft industry, automotive and the motorcycle industry.
It is impervious to all fuels, oils and fluids. It is very easy to
use and it will make your tank dang near bullet proof for any leaks
and help a little on the insulation factor. It does not chip or flake.
Good stuff!
--------
Roger Lee
|
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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Exactly, Lynn.
If I may add, after the tank is "CLEAN" and dry, mix the Kreem 50/50 MEK
before sloshing. It flows much better and you only need a very thin coat
anyway. Just don't miss any spots.
Deke
warming up in NE MI. currently 15f at 1850
do not archive
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Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:51 pm Post subject: Mogas revisited ( Back on track) |
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On Thu, February 5, 2009 5:23 pm, Roger Lee wrote:
Somehow that one didn't make it to the forum.
No joy, that one didn't make it either. Even stripping the double slash back one,
didn't help.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office |
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