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Snowshoes on struts

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I would ask my CFI to quote the reg that says it's  illegal, Lynn.  Actually, it's a pretty good question though.   Perhaps, if he's back in town, Snake Man can answer that one.

 And, Pat, I believe it's now called "climate  change".  So it goes...

 Deke

 NE MI S5 and looking for some snow melt   

 do not archive

  

 [quote]    

Yeah, It's a    year colder than normal because of global warming Al Gore    says.

do not archive



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,    IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson    <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

    

 I think this has been a long, cold winter for a lot of us....we are    

 on a record-setting pace for snowfall here in southern Lower 

    Michigan. I'v really been getting my money's worth out of these skis, 

    unlike the previous 2 years, where half the time I could have chanced 

    flying without them.

 

 Two feet, eh? That would be enough to    make me think twice about 

 venturing out. Not so much as to whether    the plane could handle that 

 much depth, but whether the pilot could,    if he had to get out and 

 walk. I gotta get some snowshoes to hang on    the struts....they look 

 so cool!! (but probably illegal, so says my    CFI, the kill-joy!)

 

 Lynn Matteson

 Kitfox IV    Speedster, taildragger

 Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 Sensenich    62x46

 Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 New skis done and    flying

 do not archive

[b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I seem to recall him saying that anything that is strapped onto the  

outside of the plane is "illegal carrying of cargo" or something like  

that. No use asking the Snake Man, those guys in the 49th State have  

been getting away with murder (figure of speech) for years, so I've  

read anyway. The way I've read about the early bush-country flying is  

that they have an unspoken rule up there that the FAA looks the other  

way and pretty much allow whatever the pilot can get on board as  

"legal".

One account I read...I believe it was in "Wager with the wind...the  

Don Sheldon story", but I can't be sure....told of an FAA guy who  

busted a pilot for carrying either too heavy a load, or carrying it  

outside of the plane, or something that the "book" said was against  

the rules, and it wasn't too long before the FAA guy was soon  

spending his time in some remote God-forsaken outpost doing menial  

duty.  This may have changed over the years, and maybe someone from  

Alaska might shed some light on the current practice....or on the  

carrying of cargo outside the plane, for that matter.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:02 PM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would ask my CFI to quote the reg that says it's illegal, Lynn.   

 Actually, it's a pretty good question though.  Perhaps, if he's  

 back in town, Snake Man can answer that one.

 And, Pat, I believe it's now called "climate change".  So it goes...

 Deke

 NE MI S5 and looking for some snow melt

 do not archive

 Yeah, It's a year colder than normal because of global warming Al  

 Gore says.

 do not archive



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



 > 

 >

 > I think this has been a long, cold winter for a lot of us....we are

 > on a record-setting pace for snowfall here in southern Lower

 > Michigan. I'v really been getting my money's worth out of these  

 skis,

 > unlike the previous 2 years, where half the time I could have  

 chanced

 > flying without them.

 >

 > Two feet, eh? That would be enough to make me think twice about

 > venturing out. Not so much as to whether the plane could handle that

 > much depth, but whether the pilot could, if he had to get out and

 > walk. I gotta get some snowshoes to hang on the struts....they look

 > so cool!! (but probably illegal, so says my CFI, the kill-joy!)

 >

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 > Sensenich 62x46

 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > New skis done and flying

 > do not archive

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

The manufacturer of a certificated aircraft must publish an owner/operator manual, and a certificated aircraft can have no modifications to it that are not in the Type Certificate Data Sheet, unless such modifications are covered by a Supplemental Type Certificate or field approval on a 337 Form.  External loads must comply with the above documents on certificated aircraft.    

   

Experimental aircraft do not fall under the above mentioned rules.  The manufacturer  (builder) of an Experimental aircraft determines the way in which the aircraft may be used, i.e., external loads.  If the Operating Limitations for a given Experimental aircraft prohibit external loads, then the prohibition applies.  As is the case with tires, floats, etc. that a builder wants to use on an Experimental aircraft, external loads may be carried if the builder wants to determine the safe loading of the external load to include weight and balance, makes the appropriate entries in the logbook, flies the aircraft so loaded the requisite time determined by either the particular configuration (usually 5 hours) or as determined by the FSDO.  Once the requisite flight time is completed and the appropriate logbook entries are made, have fun.  

   

This same subject came up while I worked at the Anchorage FSDO concerning hauling a snomachine (snowmobile) bolted to the fuselage of an Experimental copy of a Super Cub.  The guy completed the paperwork and as far as I know is still flying his snowmachine out to the bush in the winter  in interior Alaska.  I quit working there in 1999.   

   

John Hart    

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer

 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:02 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Snowshoes on struts  

  

  

     

I would ask my CFI to quote the reg that says it's illegal, Lynn.  Actually, it's a pretty good question though.  Perhaps, if he's back in town, Snake Man can answer that one.  

    

And, Pat, I believe it's now called "climate change".  So it goes...  

    

Deke  

    

NE MI S5 and looking for some snow melt    

    

do not archive  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

   

  

Yeah, It's a year colder than normal because of global warming Al Gore says.

 do not archive

 

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 

 

 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>

 > 

 > I think this has been a long, cold winter for a lot of us....we are 

 > on a record-setting pace for snowfall here in southern Lower 

 > Michigan. I'v really been getting my money's worth out of these skis, 

 > unlike the previous 2 years, where half the time I could have chanced 

 > flying without them.

 > 

 > Two feet, eh? That would be enough to make me think twice about 

 > venturing out. Not so much as to whether the plane could handle that 

 > much depth, but whether the pilot could, if he had to get out and 

 > walk. I gotta get some snowshoes to hang on the struts....they look 

 > so cool!! (but probably illegal, so says my CFI, the kill-joy!)

 > 

 > Lynn Matteson

 > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

 > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

 > Sensenich 62x46

 > Electroair direct-fire ignition system

 > New skis done and flying

 > do not archive    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 	
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       [quote][b]

akflyerbob

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Soldotna, Alaska

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Snowshoes on struts

Sorry I posted in the wrong place

Lynn 

I have always been told it is not legal to strap, Tye, or attach any 

thing to the struts as they are not designed for drag effect. 

We, I should say I, have generally tied snow shoes, rifles in a 

scabbard and other stuff, "gas cans", and have not been ruffled 

over it. Not saying up here is lax, but you can see planes tied at the airport with snow shoes strapped to the struts. 

I think all realize a one mile walk in 4 ft of snow at -20 can't be done 

without snow shoes. If their destroyed inside the plane, better outside. 

I had to remove anything from the struts to have the 

airplane annulled. 

This is not a confession and I will deny it as a myth

Bob

_________________
Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska
KF Mod I and III

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

Gotcha, Bob, and thanks for the observation.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive



On Feb 6, 2009, at 1:23 AM, AKFLYERBOB wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <r.wolfejr(at)worldnet.att.net>



 Sorry I posted in the wrong place

 Lynn

 I have always been told it is not legal to strap, Tye, or attach any

 thing to the struts as they are not designed for drag effect.

 We, I should say I, have generally tied snow shoes, rifles in a

 scabbard and other stuff, "gas cans", and have not been ruffled

 over it. Not saying up here is lax, but you can see planes tied at  

 the airport with snow shoes strapped to the struts.

 I think all realize a one mile walk in 4 ft of snow at -20 can't be  

 done

 without snow shoes. If their destroyed inside the plane, better  

 outside.

 I had to remove anything from the struts to have the

 airplane annulled.

 This is not a confession and I will deny it as a myth

 Bob



 --------

 Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska

 KF Mod I and III





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 28818#228818

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

At 04:02 PM 2/5/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I gotta get some snowshoes to hang on the struts....they look

 > so cool!! (but probably illegal, so says my CFI, the kill-joy!)


	


That would be strange. One of my flying buddies from up north 

routinely flies with his folding chairs strapped to the struts, as do 

several that travel to Kitfox fly-ins. They've travelled so many 

miles this way without question that, anecdotally speaking, I can't 

imagine it's illegal.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I certainly can't speak for U.S. regs but I certainly know it is legal to

fly with loads strapped to floats here in Canada.  How do you think most of

the canoes get into the fishing lodges?  I know a guy (PPL) who has over the

years had some very nice planes.  He has carried everything from canoes to

sheets of plywood to refrigerators on the struts of his floats.  His advice

to me was when carrying external loads just dodge along...  don't try to

break any speed records.



BTW when you strap a canoe to your struts the plane will want to lift that

wing not drop it because of the extra weight.  Thge canoe has an aerodynamic

shape that actually adds lift to the side it's on.



 Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I like the anecdotal tales, but does anybody know, and can they cite,  

the appropriate rule regarding this practice? If I could find my FAR/ 

AIM, I'd try to look it up.



I just got done reading "Bent props and blow pots" and in it they  

talk of trying to get airborne with a set of extra floats strapped  

above the existing floats of the low-wing Junkers they were flying.  

They had the "to-be-delivered" floats strapped inverted above their  

own floats, and could not get up to takeoff speed in this  

configuration, so they rotated the floats so they were keels down,  

and with this setup finally got airborne. This was in Canada, circa  

1930's.



Again, I've heard the stories, but I'd like to know if I'm in  

jeopardy of being busted if I do it, and what can I cite in my  

defense if I do....and to argue with my CFI friend who loves to have  

the law/rule on the tip of his tongue.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 6, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I certainly can't speak for U.S. regs but I certainly know it is  

 legal to

 fly with loads strapped to floats here in Canada.  How do you think  

 most of

 the canoes get into the fishing lodges?  I know a guy (PPL) who has  

 over the

 years had some very nice planes.  He has carried everything from  

 canoes to

 sheets of plywood to refrigerators on the struts of his floats.   

 His advice

 to me was when carrying external loads just dodge along...  don't  

 try to

 break any speed records.



 BTW when you strap a canoe to your struts the plane will want to  

 lift that

 wing not drop it because of the extra weight.  Thge canoe has an  

 aerodynamic

 shape that actually adds lift to the side it's on.



  Noel

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Snowshoes on struts

Snakeman has to side with John Hart on this one... I think that sometimes people confuse rules for certified AC and those for experimentals.  I did a bit of searching on the FAA website and could find nothing on external loads for experimental AC.



Personal experience with a kitfox has been 2 shotguns on a strut, 4 fishing poles on a strut, 1 pair snowshoes on a strut.  Not all at the same time lol.  No adverse effects were noted.  I also strapped dry bags with all my duck hunting gear on top of the floats as well as 2- 5 gallon cans on each float.  While the extra drag was noted in a speed loss, no adverse  effects to the flying qualities of the kitfox were noted.



Snakeman.... out

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

Noel,



Your post reminds me of some video I saw of a guy carrying in building 

materials for a remote cabin strapped to his airplane externally.  Obviously 

this was a certified airplane and it was documented in video.  That I saw it 

means everyone else saw it.



Lowell



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

Thanks, Snake...and John. I'll run this info by my CFI. I just love  

to get him to go to the "BOOK" and back up what he preaches. : )



My recent "ski tuck" proves that the Kitfox *will* fly with some  

pretty good adverse drag.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 6, 2009, at 11:17 AM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Snakeman has to side with John Hart on this one... I think that  

 sometimes people confuse rules for certified AC and those for  

 experimentals.  I did a bit of searching on the FAA website and  

 could find nothing on external loads for experimental AC.



 Personal experience with a kitfox has been 2 shotguns on a strut, 4  

 fishing poles on a strut, 1 pair snowshoes on a strut.  Not all at  

 the same time lol.  No adverse effects were noted.  I also strapped  

 dry bags with all my duck hunting gear on top of the floats as well  

 as 2- 5 gallon cans on each float.  While the extra drag was noted  

 in a speed loss, no adverse  effects to the flying qualities of the  

 kitfox were noted.



 Snakeman.... out

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

It's not a matter of FAR in this instance.  It's a matter of aircraft

certification.  Nothing I have ever seen in any regulation specifically

addresses external loads on a given aircraft.  There are some rules

pertaining to external loads, but they do not specify which aircraft by

make, model or serial number.  FAR 133 pertains to ROTORCRAFT EXTERNAL-LOAD

OPERATIONS, and it applies to holders of commercial operateors external load

certificates.  As far as I know. no "regulation" exists for fixed wing.

 

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=d500894896c3de5eda5

7b3b87512cc38&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:3.0.1.1.6&idno=14



There is guidance in the Flight Standards Information Management System,

8900.1 which may be accessed through www.faa.gov .



The following link may be helpful:

 http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-1A.pdf  There

is mention of determining safe loading of experimental aircraft with

external loads.



John Hart

KF IV, NSI Subaru

Wilburton, OK



--

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I like the anecdotal tales, but does anybody know, and can they cite,  the 

 appropriate rule regarding this practice? If I could find my FAR/ AIM, I'd 

 try to look it up.


	


I may be wrong, Lynn, but I I think you'll be wasting your time.  Better to 

wait and see if anyone can cite a reg, which I doubt.

Now, with a day like this, why are you hen pecking away at the key board 

when you could be out taking advantage of this.  My hangar is surrounded by 

combines getting ready to take off my corn.  The snow is so deep they will 

have to just skim along the top of the snow to get the cobs.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I have a piece of black PVc Pipe around 3" I.D. and about six feet long

tied more or less permanently to my left float strut.  When fishing with the

fly rod I break it in half and insert it through the tube from the front.

Spinning gear doesn't need to b3e broken down.  Air pressure keeps the rods

in the tubes until I land...  Makes setting up to fish a lot faster.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

Deke:



You grow corn through the winter??



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

I'm peckin' away because I've got a helluva cold/flu/whatever. I'd  

like to be out checking the takeoff-ability of the plane in this  

warming snow, but I feel like crap.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

do not archive

On Feb 6, 2009, at 2:32 PM, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

> 

>

> I like the anecdotal tales, but does anybody know, and can they  

> cite,  the appropriate rule regarding this practice? If I could  

> find my FAR/ AIM, I'd try to look it up.

 I may be wrong, Lynn, but I I think you'll be wasting your time.   

 Better to wait and see if anyone can cite a reg, which I doubt.

 Now, with a day like this, why are you hen pecking away at the key  

 board when you could be out taking advantage of this.  My hangar is  

 surrounded by combines getting ready to take off my corn.  The snow  

 is so deep they will have to just skim along the top of the snow to  

 get the cobs.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but  

 progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: Snowshoes on struts

No, the land is leased to a big farmer who, I assume has just been waiting 

for a good price before taking it off.

Winter is so dry here that it does fine just standing there, except for the 

constant pilfering by the coons and deer.

D

[quote]

 Deke:



 You grow corn through the winter??



 Noel



 --

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